Talk:Southern Tier

	New York (state) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Otsego County?

I grew up in various parts of Otsego County and never knew that is was part of the Southern Tier. It's not all that close to the southern border of the state. It seems to me that the people in the northwestern part of the county think they live in Central New York, while people in the southeastern part think they live in the Catskill region. The state recreation folks say it's part of the "Central Leatherstocking Region."

Does anyone know what the source of this subdivision of counties is? Nonenmac 23:21, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I always thought it was just Broome and Tioga. The Elmira area calls itself the "Twin Tiers". ccwaters 23:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I must agree: I grew up in Otsego County and this area has never to my knowledge been included in the Southern Tier. This area is regularly referred to as Central New York with the northern part of the county (area surrounding Otsego Lake) specifically being included in the Leatherstocking Region as it is a featured setting in James Fenimore Cooper's Leatherstocking Tales (The Deerslayer - Last of the Mohicans, etc).

Google Test

Here are some links that may help to define what people consider the Southern Tier to be:

The Southern Tier West Regional Planning & Development Board coordinates planning and development in Allegany, Cattaraugus, and Chautauqua Counties — the westernmost 3 along the southern border (Cattaraugus, and Chautauqua were left out by the article)

The Southern Tier East Regional Planning Development Board coordinates planning and development in Broome, Chenango, Cortland, Delaware, Schoharie, and Tioga counties. (Cortland and Schoharie were left out by article.)

The Southern Tier Central Regional Planning and Development Board provides services to government, agencies, and the private sector in Chemung, Schuyler and Steuben Counties. (Schuyler was left out by the article).

The Southern Tier Health Care System is a health network for Cattaraugus, Allegany, and Chautauqua Counties. (Again the western two were left out by the article, while all the eastern counties are not included in the STHCS.)

The Southern Tier Library System covers the counties of Allegany, Steuben, Chemung, Yates, and Schuyler. (Yates, and Schuyler were left out by the article.)

Southern Tier Economic Growth appears to be involved with just Chemung county.

Appalachian Region of NY

One point that I noticed is that the Southern Tier of NY corresponds closely with the northernmost section of what's considered to be Appalachia.

The Appalachian Regional Commission Program in New York State

Nonenmac 01:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections

I've done some corrections based on the arguments posted on this page. Otsego and Chenango Counties are now listed as "rarely" referred to as Southern Tier Counties. Cattaraugus County is now on the main list.

I should note that "Twin Tiers" encompasses "Southern Tier" so if you're part of the Twin Tiers, you're either in the Southern Tier (of NY) or Northern Tier (of PA). In other words, yes, Elmira is part of the Southern Tier.

JMyrleFuller 21:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the article to avoid speculation as to why there was population decline in recent decades. I am not sure that the decline is still happening, for one, and also, the discussion that population decline is attributed to a poor climate or the Southern tier not being close to a major metro area is just speculation...not really article material. --Zmkub (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know the history of the TERM Southern Tier? How long has it been in use and considered a geographical entity? I'd be curious to know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.39.103.200 (talk) 14:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of Southern Tier

The definition of which counties the Southern Tier encompasses is certainly up for debate. I would argue that Delaware County is not usually referred to as part of the Southern Tier. Furthermore, Schoharie County should be removed completetly, it borders Albany County which is the heart of the Capital District. Meanwhile, the counties out to the West like Cattaraugus and Allegany may be considered more a part of Western New York. It seems to me that it may be best to include three categories of counties in the Southern Tier:

Accepted counties:
-Steuben (Corning)
-Chemung (Elmira)
-Tioga (Owego)
-Broome (Binghmaton)
These counties and municipalities are almost universally said to be in the Southern Tier.

Sometimes accepted:
-Allegany (Wellsville)
-Schuyler (Watkins Glen)
-Tompkins (Ithaca)
-Delaware
-Cattaraugus

Rarely Accepted:
-Otsego
-Chenango
-Cortland

This is just my interpenetration. No matter what it should be stressed in the article that the Southern Tier is very loosely defined and much less rigid than other regions like the Capital Region and the NYC metro area.

Any comments and discussion would be appreciated, I don't want to just go making changes on my own. Jasebasketball (talk) 16:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

->Your division of counties into categories would be as arbitrary as anything already in the article and subjectively represent your own opinion (i.e. not based on any research) or official designation. You should probably be prepared to support such a change with source(s) IMHO.DeXXus (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Frankly, the current set-up on the main page seems pretty arbitrary, and to some extent, not even accurate. For example, there is no way Schoharie County should be considered part of the Southern Tier, it is firmly in the capital region, as it borders Albany County, receives Capital Region news, is part of the Albany National Weather Service coverage area as oppossed to the Binghamton NWS, etc. I could certainly find a few sources to support my views like we have now but that could just start an edit war..Jasebasketball (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

->In the official New York State government link that I added to this article it clearly includes Schoharie County.

In addition, a simple Google site search of just that one state website:

site:www.state.ny.us "Southern Tier" +Schoharie

alone... yields more than a dozen "mentions" for Schoharie's inclusion in the Southern Tier.DeXXus (talk) 00:14, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For one the first few google hits on that search are from Wikipedia, and many of those sites don't contain relevant information pertaining to Schoharie's inclusion in the Southern Tier... and some even have contradictory information. http://www.growscny.com/dynamicPage.php?page_key=81 Several reliable sites don't mention Schoharie County as part of the Southern Tier or counties bordering it being included, such as http://books.google.com/books?id=dSkTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA113&dq=southern+tier+new+york&client=firefox-a http://books.google.com/books?id=3kzgPs4oD7MC&pg=PA135&dq=southern+tier+new+york&lr=&client=firefox-a

The County Chamber of Commerce Website makes no mention of the Southern Tier, instead mentioning the it as part of the Leatherstocking Region http://www.schohariechamber.com/community_guide.asp It's not a huge deal but it seems that geography and logic dictate that Schoharie not be part of the Southern Tier. Heck, even the first paragraph of the article refutes its inclusion. Maybe the best thing to do would be to use three colors on the map, putting controversial counties like Schohaire in a different shade, as the article already seems to already be doing this. Jasebasketball (talk) 04:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

->The inconsistency is definitely not being disputed by me. I'm merely stating that the term Southern Tier has historically changed/evolved and represents different groupings of counties for varying reasons according to stated purposes, whether mere colloquial reference, geographical and terrain considerations, socio-economic and governmental reference or some other application of logic based on how far north or east they are, where they get their news or what other regions they also fall under. You were looking for discussion and thou hast received :)DeXXus (talk) 12:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Canals

Anyone have expertise on the Chemung and Chenango Canals, and how they influenced the early development of Elmira and Binghamton respectively? I suspect they became major centers in the Southern Tier mainly because these canals connected them to the successful and profitable Erie Canal, and by the time the railroads came, much of the development continued in these already established centers. The Waverly/Sayre/Athens area seems like a more natural transportation center, since it is the water-level gateway between the Susquehanna Valley in Pennsylvania and the Finger Lakes region. But straddling the border meant straddling the economic interests of competing states at a time when such competition was extremely intense. As a result, plans to connect the New York and Pennsylvania canal systems never materialized and the area saw more modest development than Elmira or Binghamton (which in turn were and are smaller than the largest cities on the main line of the Erie Canal).

Anyway, as you can see this is a big topic, and beyond my expertise as a historian, so is anybody interested in looking into this, or pointing me to some good sources?

And in any case, more info on the canals would be valuable. There is none here, none in the Binghamton article and very little in the Elmira article.--Bardobro (talk) 18:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]