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Talk:Stephen Bishop (cave explorer)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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The man's accomplishments speak for themselves. We don't need pious, politically-correct fluff about his "legacy" to tell us how to interpret the article.

Mea Culpa. Alan Canon 30 June 2005 21:21 (UTC)

Davis McCombs's book of poetry, entitled Ultima Thule, centers around Stephen Bishop. (BTW, this book won the Yale Younger Poets Award.) I would imagine that there are other depictions of Bishop in song, art, creative non-fiction, and film that could be listed here. Any help? I'd like to add the McCombs book, yet it should probably not stand alone. Suggestions for creating this section? Josh a brewer (talk) 18:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

N. P. Willis

I'm curious where the information regarding Nathaniel Parker Willis came from. I'm trying to get his article up to GA but I have no reference to Mammoth Cave or Stephen Bishop in the three Willis biographies I have access to. Can anyone show me a source so I can add it to his article? --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Who owned Bishop and who owned the cave

The article is not clear about who owned Bishop and who owned the cave. It says he was introduced to the cave by HIS owner -Gorin- then that Gorin wrote about him after Bishop's death. Later it states that Bishop was freed when his owner died...

read it carefully, at the mo it doesn't really make sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marchin Man (talk • contribs) 15:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Stephen Bishop (cave explorer)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

The text of the article gives the year of Bishop's death as 1856, while the photo of his tombstone quite clearly shows 1859. They can't both be right. 219.112.16.87 03:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 06:59, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Stephen Bishop (cave explorer)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 15:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll pick this up. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
  • Refs:
  • Lead:
  • Early years:
    • "stemming from the divorce of his possible father, white farmer Lowry Bishop" who is the "his" referred to here - Stephen Bishop or Gorin?
  • Mammoth Cave career:
  • Bishop's 1842 map:
    • "bought the Mammoth Cave Estate, including Bishop and other people from their previous enslaver, Franklin Gorin" just say "bought the Mammoth Cave Estate, including Bishop and other people, from Gorin" here, as Gorin can't have enslaved the cave which he also bought. Also, per the MOS, once we introduce someone, we just use surname to refer to them, not full name.
      • Point taken that Gorin didn't enslave the Cave. I've adjusted that sentence but have kept Gorin's full name. I would like to mention that MOS:SURNAME states "generally". The full name is mentioned once in "Early years". I thought it made sense to give the full name again since "Bishop's 1842 map of Mammoth Cave" is a completely different section. Also, I am editing to keep in mind the changing usage of enslaved/enslaver instead of slaves/owner. Shearonink (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Freedom:
  • In Literature:
    • None of these tell us anything about Bishop himself - they are all fictional works. By MOS:POPCULT they really shouldn't be here unless there is secondary sources covering how they shed light on Bishop.
      • Pop culture/trivia sections are problematic but it seems important to me that Bishop has been the subject of at least these three works of fiction plus numerous other works as seen here in a Google Books search. Going forward towards a GA, I am unsure as to what would be best in terms of Wikipedia policy/guidelines but seems to me that Bishop's notability is certainly buttressed by the number of books and articles that have been written about him... Shearonink (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I forgot to mention that I changed the header for this section to "Fictional depictions". Will that address the trivia/popcult issues? Shearonink (talk) 22:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
        • The MOS guideline says "Cultural references about a subject (for example how it is presented in a movie, song, television show, etc.) should not be included simply because they exist. Rather, all such references should be discussed in at least one reliable secondary or tertiary source which specifically links the cultural item to the subject of the article. This source should cover the subject of the article in some depth; it should not be a source about the cultural item which merely mentions the subject." which these don't meet, but I'm not going to throw a huge deal about it or fail the nomination. In fact, I'm going to pass it shortly, but it really should not have just the plain mention of some cultural mention without some sort of secondary coverage in the article here. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
  • I did some copyediting, please make sure I didn't inadvertently change meaning.
    • The measurement conversions changes were absolutely helpful but I would have preferred to make adjustments and changes myself - some of your changes seem somewhat according to editorial preference rather than GA criteria but Ok - it's consensus. Shearonink (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I generally don't bother with minor copyediting and making the nominator do it - if there are concerns with some of my changes - please feel free to bring them up here and we can discuss why I made them. Some may be preference, others are likely to be me fixing what I thought were typos. Please dont' feel you have to accept my changes - the article is fine, and all I want to do is make it finer with your help. Ealdgyth (talk) 20:08, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
  • I randomly googled three phrases and only turned up Wikipedia mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no sign of copyright violation.
I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
I think I've addressed all your concerns but let me know if there's anything else you think I should adjust/correct/change. Shearonink (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Everything but the popcult is dealt with, and I don't care to have a dragout fight about it, but it's really not meeting MOS:POPCULT right now. However, the GA criteria don't specify that MOS guideline as one that HAS to be met, so I'm not going to hold the nomination up based on that. Passing this now. Ealdgyth (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for all your work on the article, I'll continue to improve it - yeah re: "fictional depictions". In looking over the Review I noticed that GA Criteria 1a & 1b is still stating "???". If you could update those parameters, that would be helpful. Shearonink (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by MeegsC (talk) 19:38, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

(
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Drawing of Stephen Bishop (not done from life)
Drawing of Stephen Bishop (not done from life)
  • ... that Stephen Bishop's (pictured) 1842 map of Mammoth Cave, drawn from memory, was so accurate that it remained in use for over forty years? Source: "the Bishop map was used into the 1880s." [1]
  • Very interesting article, nice work! - just one minor sourcing issue and a QPQ needed. Article is newly promoted to GA and is long enough. I see no neutrality issues and Earwig returns no copyright violations, however the section "Fictional depictions" is not verified with inline citations. User:Shearonink could you please either add citations or remove this section? The proposed hooks are interesting, neutral and verified with inline citations. I've slightly tweaked the first hook to mention that the map was drawn from memory as per the source, which I think is pretty interesting. I would go with that one or ALT2, I'll leave that up to you. A blurb about crossing the Bottomless Pit would also be pretty good. The images used have appropriate licences, however I'm not sure I would use the infobox image on the main page given it's a later depiction. A QPQ is required as you have had more than 5 DYK's. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:52, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Ah, I see you've already done a review for QPQ. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:56, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
      • Ivar the Boneful - I just used the QPQ tool on myself, I had no idea I had that many DYK?s...lol it's been over a decade since the most recent one. And, I'm actually not all that sure I submitted any of those myself, I think it might have been a mentor-editor who was helping me out at the time.
      • Re: the image...that is the only one that is purportedly/supposedly of Bishop. Oddly enough that image was created in the 1880s for a book and is probably only a fanciful depiction done off of an artist's imagination and N.P. WIllis' description in his "Tropics" publication (since Bishop actually did die in 1857). Despite the mislabeled photograph I found on the internet (I think in "Ancestry" or maybe "pinterest"?), there are no known/reliably-sourced photographs of Bishop and no drawings of him exist that were done from life.
      • Re the "fictional depictions" section - I changed that into the more-appropriate "Further reading", only retaining the 2 works I know of that were written by WP-notable authors. Seems important to mention somewhere within the article that notable authors have written works with Bishop as a major player. As a "Further reading", cites are not required. Let me know if that suffices. Shearonink (talk) 16:23, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
        • Ivar the Boneful? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 20:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
          • heavily relying on the original review, I'll confirm that the problems ItB raised have been addressed and tick this. Although I think that the image shouldn't be used if we don't have a drawing from life, yeah. So- approved, but no image. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 03:08, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
            • theleekycauldron Thanks for stepping up, greatly appreciated. Lol - I knew I shouldn't have put that fact in the caption! But, I am nothing if not precise in such matters... So are you saying the 1880s drawing of Bishop can't/shouldn't be used if this DYK gets into the queue? If that is so, I think the image of Bishop's map for the first hook would be good - here it is - but I don't know how to put that into the template and take "Bishop" out... (Image removed) Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 04:13, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
            • theleekycauldron For that matter, ALT3 could have the image of Bishop's tombstone... (Image removed) Shearonink (talk) 04:16, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
              • @Shearonink: hmm. They're not terrible, but the map doesn't appear to be readable at Main Page resolution, and we generally don't use tombstones as biopics. So, I'm hesitant? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 20:49, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
                • Theleekycauldron Oh...now that I've taken a closer look at the present map...yikes. But...Eureka! The image itself is copyright-free, and I found an available online repository at the Tennessee Virtual Archive (TeVA) - a digital repository of the Tennessee State Library & Archives ->> here and this is TeVA's image page for Bishop's published map with all the pertinent info/copyright status. The present image on Commons is from a 2004 download onto Wikipedia of an image from a National Park Service website and that image looks to be a copy, of a copy, of a copy, etc.... If I can figure out how to get this better image onto Commons or onto Wikipedia I'll do that and then swap this higher-res image in for the original image in the article. If I run into issues I might call upon your better talents. Shearonink (talk) 21:46, 21 March 2022 (UTC)


Theleekycauldron FYI - I've gone ahead & deleted the 2 extra images - the headstone image and the previous poor-quality image of the map. Now, over there on the right is a new/better image of Stephen Bishop's Mammoth Cave Map that is now in Stephen Bishop (cave explorer). This image is of sufficient res and quality to be readable on Main Page. Shearonink (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Bishop's Map of Mammoth Cave
Bishop's Map of Mammoth Cave

DYK Prep-person - Taking into account Theleekycauldron's concerns, perhaps use this map image instead of "Stephen" for the main hook...

  • ... that Stephen Bishop's 1842 map (pictured) of Mammoth Cave, drawn from memory, was so accurate that it remained in use for over forty years? Source: "the Bishop map was used into the 1880s." [6]

or use it for ALT2:

  • ALT2: ... that Stephen Bishop discovered the key (pictured) to proving that the Mammoth Cave System is the longest cave system known in the world, 130 years before a 1972 expedition verified that fact? Source: "Guess who first discovered Hanson's Lost River. Stephen Bishop! I'm sending you a copy of his 1842 map. The passage is shown as a dry passage taking off just beyond the second boat landing on Echo River."[Brucker, Roger W.; Watson, Richard A. (1987). The Longest Cave. SIU Press. pp. 253–254] Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 02:32, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
    • @Shearoning: that would appear as something similar to the right—it doesn't look super clear, is there a way to make the text/lines more immediately accessible? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
    • Whoops, Shearonink theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
      • I have no idea. I was just happy I could grab a screen-shot of this public-domain image that is better than the NPS scribbles... The TeVA links I posted above said something about maybe getting better-res digital-images from them but I think those cost money. I have to take a break from this for a couple of days. When I have some more time I might get in touch with the Tennessee State Archives/TeVA and see what they say. Shearonink (talk) 07:11, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
        • Theleekycauldron - SUCCESS. I was able to download and then upload a higher-res file of the map from TeVA. I can read the names on it when I zoom in, I have swapped it in at the article and have removed the previous File above and placed the higher-quality image of the map in its place. Shearonink (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
          • @Shearonink: Nice! so the file I'm seeing to the right is the high-res version? I still can't quite read the names without zooming in... theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
            • Theleekycauldron It is the best that is available...heh, maybe we need to remember that Mammoth Cave is the longest-known cave system in the world so this map, even though it's from 1842, is very detailed...maybe think of how readable would a map of the United States be if it were reduced to a Main Page DYK size. I did look through some recent DYKs to try to find some maps as the (pictured) image. There was a map on February 3rd for ... that the proposed Palestinian enclaves in the West Bank (map pictured) constitute an "archipelago" of 165 territories? but the details on that map-image aren't at all apparent, even when I Zoom in on it. I think this map .jpg-File from the Tennessee State Library is more than fine. Shearonink (talk) 00:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
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