Talk:Stonewall riots/Archive 14

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Clientele

"It catered to an assortment of patrons and was known to be popular among the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: drag queens, transgender people, effeminate young men, butch lesbians, male prostitutes, and homeless youth."

This bit is not sourced, and I think we have more solid sourcing that it was primarily a men's bar, with later addition of some women and drag queens. Either way, the clientele section needs to be WP:RS sourced. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:36, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

That wording is in the lead section, makes no extraordinary claims, and is largely unchanged from the way it was when the article passed FA. It is largely based on content in the Stonewall Inn section, which appears to be adequately sourced. I'm certainly open to saying it was primarily a men's bar if we have a RS for that, but I'm not sure about the "later addition" bit. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 20:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, you're right; it's in the lede. The lede is so long I actually thought it was in the first section. I think the sourcing in the Inn section is perhaps over-reliant on Duberman. Might want to revisit some of the other interviews to double-check. I still think the lede is a bit off from the Inn section and could use a bit of tweaking, but I'm not solid on how at the moment. Just wanted to bring it up for input. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Another note on vernacular: "Queens" vs "Drag Queens"

I'm not having very good luck turning up WP:RS sources on this, because it relies on documenting linguistic shift. But one reason for some of the confusion here, and around edits like this:[1], is that in the vernacular of the era, "queen" meant any "queeny" gay guy who was not trying to butch it up and pass as straight. Any guy who was out, and signalling gayness by, say, wearing a floral or paisley shirt, maybe tied at the waist, and using in-group speech to signal gayness (like using she/her pronouns for everyone, not as a gender marker, but to indicate being part of the gay scene), was called a "queen". See also, "flaming queen." This was different from dressing in full drag as a drag queen. These guys were just signalling gayness. So in news and anecdotal reports of the time, when people say, "The queens were rioting!" or "That queen punched him!" most of the time they are not talking about men in drag, or people we would ever consider drag queens or transgender persons. And yes, I know, we need RS sources for this. I'd appreciate help in finding them. Because the books I have here, that were published in the intervening years, just assume that readers already know this. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 19:25, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Lead contradicts content of the article

The lead, which is linked to no reference, says one thing about the composition of Stonewall Inn's customers:

It catered to an assortment of patrons and was known to be popular among the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: butch lesbians, effeminate young men, drag queens, male prostitutes, transgender people, and homeless youth.

But the content says another:

Only a few transvestites, or men in full drag, were allowed in by the bouncers. The customers were "98 percent male" but a few lesbians sometimes came to the bar.

The lead seems to have been made in concession to the current popular discourse on the revolts, which highlights the supposedly immense diversity of rioters, but also Stonewall's academic histories when media reports describe the rioters as young men, with very few of them women or people dressed as woman. — Peleio Aquiles (talk) 21:55, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

It does need to be updated. There are also unsourced IP edits today that are changing what is clearly indicated as the historically attested, language of the era, to terms that were not yet in use. This is rendering the text confusing and, in some places, historically inaccurate. I don't feel up to edit-warring with anyone, so I'm waiting for this to settle. Ideally, it should just be reverted, and then updates made to put the text in line with the sourcing that's been added in recent months/years. This needs to be done by editors who have thoroughly read the reliable sources (and who are clear on which of the sources are reliable). - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Introduction contains clear continuity error. Can a subject-matter expert please address?

The introduction currently contains the lines

"Police raids on gay bars were routine in the 1960s, but officers quickly lost control of the situation at the Stonewall Inn. Tensions between New York City police and gay residents of Greenwich Village erupted into more protests the next evening, and again several nights later."

There is a continuity error / temporal ambiguity between these two sentences. The first sentence simply fixes the time as "in the 1960's", while the next sentence suggests that a specific date has been fixed. Presumably that date is June 28, 1969, but I cannot be sure. I'm sure this is a very simple fix for someone who knows the history. If you (the person reading this) can make an appropriate fix, please feel free to delete this section from the talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rileyjmurray (talk • contribs) 04:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Made small edit to address this. — HipLibrarianship ^talk 22:04, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

IP adding new claimants to participation

The sources for these new claims (only made for the first time within the past few weeks or years) are weak, and not corroborated by what has been known about the riots and participants for the past 50 years. We have discussed Miss Major Griffin-Gracy before,[2] and decided to cut her, as every single one of her claims came solely from her, is uncorroborated, and she also stated that people who are well-documented to have been there, such as Marsha P. Johnson, were not there. Griffin-Gracy has also given descriptions of the layout of the bar and the clientele that are at odds with everyone else's. Victoria Cruz, in the documentary, The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson, spoke extensively about her life during the Stonewall era, but never claimed to have participated in the actual riots. The Vanity Fair source simply states that Cruz spent time at the Stonewall Inn during that era. I have great respect for the work Ms. Cruz has done, but having gone to the bar at some point does not equal participation in the uprising. The Advocate source seems to be misinterpreting the Vanity Fair article. It would not be the first time the Advocate has gotten something like this a bit wrong. Another source was added here and to Rivera's article to "source" that Cruz and Rivera participated in the riots; this one claims that Cruz is now saying that she was sitting on some steps, watching, and saw Sylvia Rivera in the park during the riots. Marsha Johnson is on record that Sylvia was passed out in the park. Even if this new statement could be corroborated by known participants, being in the neighborhood, or somewhere in Manhattan, watching or passed out, is not a statement of participation in the riots. I think these IP additions need to be cut. I've removed them before, as the citations do not reliably source the content. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:32, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

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