Talk:Sulaiman Bek

Preventing an edit war

Alright @Mteiritay:,

at this point I think it is clear that either we talk this out or it devolves into an edit war. If we can't find common ground, we should consider involving mediators, but I hope we're both mature enough to argue reasonably.

About your arguments for deleting my edits: 1. Your argument about the Bayat tribe not being Turkmen does not actually concern my edit, as it was just a side fact I mentioned in the edit log but didn't include in the article in any way. Furthermore, you surely see how questionable it is to use a facebook link to argue against actual sources used in the article, that it doesn't even concern directly. If you want, we can also expand this discussion on the Bayat, as I could also show you facebook links declaring the Bayat Turkmen, but again, this isn't even what this is about, since the ethnicity of the Bayat is not included in the article.

2. The category below is not sourced, so that could very well be the next thing you decide to delete. Also, the categories are not part of the information of an article, they are, well, categories this article is part of. That you are trying to delete information from a stub of two sentences as redundant, is rather ridiculous, as you can hopefully see.

3. South Azerbaijani is the linguistic name of Turkmen, which is, in fact a recognized minority language of Iraq, as acknowledged by the constitution:

Article 4:
First: The Arabic language and the Kurdish language are the two official
languages of Iraq. The right of Iraqis to educate their children in their mother
tongue, such as Turkmen, Syriac, and Armenian shall be guaranteed in
government educational institutions in accordance with educational guidelines, or
in any other language in private educational institutions.

and

Fourth: The Turkomen language and the Syriac language are two other official
languages in the administrative units in which they constitute density of
population.

I hope you agree that this clears things up. Your argument, that the name would be the same either way of course doesn't hold any water, as evidently, G is a different letter than K.

One additional point: Please acknowledge, that you can not simply continue removing sourced content because you dislike it for whatever reason. Not only is this against Wikipedia rules, it also is very respectless against the effort people put into filling Wikipedia with information. I hope we can find agreement here.

Sincerely--Ermanarich (talk) 13:33, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll add here now, if the problem is that the Iraqi Turkmen language is shown as "South Azerbaijani" here, that can be changed without deleting the rest. The problem is, that Wikipedia's linguistic template only shows South Azerbaijani, as that is the linguistic classification of Iraqi Turkmen. That can be worked around by doing it manually though.--Ermanarich (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You have no reliable source that the Turkmen consitute the 'density' of the population of Sulaiman Bek. Until you do I see no reason to change the article. Mteiritay (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

---

In fact, I do have two sources that speak about a considerable Turkmen community living in Sulaiman Bek, France24 and Al Arabiya, while you have cited zero sources for your apparent claim that it is 100% Arab. Mind you, density does not mean majority, but a considerable community. Not only that, the name does not need to be official to be included here, as can be seen with the inclusion of the local dialect spelling in the article of Hamburg.

In your reversion of my edit, you claimed "Both sources you added do not at all state the town has a Turkmen minority". That is, however, not true. The Al Arabiya article says "وينتشر التركمان في قضاء تلعفر, غرب الموصل, وصولا الى التون كوبري وكركوك وتازه وداقوق وطوز خورماتو وسليمان بيك وامرلي وينكجا في نواحي محافظتي صلاح الدين وكركوك", which translates to "The Turkmens are distributed in the Tal Afar district west of Mosul, over to Altun Kupri, Kirkuk, Taza, Daquq, Tuz Khurmatu, Suleiman Bek, Amirli and Yengiche districts in Salah ad-Din and Kirkuk." Equally, the other article talks of Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek.

Your argument about them already having a category falls flat, as 1) this article is a stub so every sourced addition helps expanding the article, 2) a category is included after something relating to that category is added in the main text of an article and 3) what would even stop you from removing that as well, as after your deletions there's no source proving there are Turkmens in the city?

Your third claim that "South Azeri is not an official language of iraq in any capacity" has already been disproven by me in the answer above, with citation from the Iraqi constitution. I also said that I am willing to work around the problem of Iraqi Turkmen language and South Azerbaijani having the same language code, but so far you have not been cooperative in the slightest.

For good measure, here two more articles reporting about Turkmens and the Bayat tribe speaking Turkmen and Arabic in Sulaiman Bek.

As you so far don't really seem constructive to me and because I have seen in your contributions that there seems to be a theme of you deleting mentions of non-Arab minorities, I will now ping an administrator, to settle that dispute we're seemingly not able to. For that, I chose @Swatjester:, as he has decided in your favor in your edit war in the Al-Balushi on 31 March 2024 and can thus be regarded as impartial. I hope that will settle it, I for one will accept the judgement--Ermanarich (talk) 17:09, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, I'd suggest y'all try using dispute resolution noticeboard if you haven't tried that already. It's specifically designed for settling these kinds of debates, and whoever assists there will likely have more time to devote to this than I will. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I would like no not waste much more time on that issue than I already had to. The situation is rather clear: The other user is deleting sourced content (supported by four sources now) and doesn't engage in a constructive discussion.

I would also like to notify you, @Swatjester:, that while you accused the now banned User talk:M5Ehistory for having demanded other users to ""take a DNA test" and 'splaining to them where their family's come from", these edits were actually done by the very User:Mteiritay, who is deleting my sourced content here. (Now, this is not a complaint for the banning of that other user, this is understandable as far as I can follow what happened there).

But yeah, if you don't have the time to mediate here, I won't bother you anymore. Thanks for your efforts to keep Wikipedia civil.--Ermanarich (talk) 15:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The article you linked does not state the tribe's ethnicity, it just states the languages they speak. Mteiritay (talk) 20:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

See, that's what I mean by not constructive. I've now got three sources talking about Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek, one about the Bayat tribe speaking Turkmen there and one of those former three (the Al Arabiya one) stating that the Bayat tribe is Turkmen. That this tribe speaks Turkmen is of course also relevant, as even without referral to the ethnicity, you're also trying to delete the alternative spelling coming from Turkmen.--Ermanarich (talk) 08:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

And who says that source is correct? The actual sheikh of the tribe is an Arab and says it is an Arab tribe. Why not just leave the name of the tribe instead of arguing over what the tribe is? It does not help the point of the page which is just about the town. The official name of the town is in Arabic, adding an article which happens to translate the name does not count as a source. Mteiritay (talk) 21:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Back to square one, literally: No, not 'that' source. 4 sources. By respected, often used sources like France24 and Al Arabiya. Meanwhile all you've got for your claim is a literal facebook video. You know, I could come along with these as well, but that doesn't make it any more acceptable to use.

Your point gets even more ridiculous, as the whole question about the ethnicity of the Bayat is, as of now, not part of the content you fervently keep deleting. As for the name, you have - again - not answered the arguments I've brought up before. As Swat Jester seems to have abandoned us, I shall search for another mediator.--Ermanarich (talk) 01:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

And the 'facebook video' that you keep criticizing is a video of the actual sheikh of the tribe, which you fail to mention as it doesn't fit your narrative. And what are your sources? List them here. Mteiritay (talk) 13:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm really getting angry at this point. You're even too lazy to read my texts and look at the sources, is that what you're saying? Here, you have them, again:

• France24
• Al Arabiya
• Al Etihad
• Al Iraq times

Now, as for your issue with the Bayat tribe: 1. Facebook still isn't a reliable source that can be used on Wikipedia and 2. The question of the ethnicity of the Bayat tribe is not even directly related to this edit war, as it is not part of the edits so far. But just to make you happy, here a few sources about the ethnicity of the Bayat:

• The actual article on Wikipedia: Bayat (tribe)
• Shafaq
• Baghdad today
• Al Ahad
• Rudaw
• Al Sharqiya]
• A facebook post, if that makes you happier

I hope that settles it.--Ermanarich (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I know that person who died personally and he does not represent all Bayatis. There are some Turkmen who claim to be of this tribe but the sheikh confirms they are Arabs and the tribe is composed of Arab clans, a simple Google search will prove this. As for you being 'angry', facts don't care about your feelings. Mteiritay (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Which facts? All you gave as a source is one facebook video that does not address the claim of Turkmen living in Sulaiman Bek, which I have supported with four sources. Also, your claim that the person who was killed doesn't represent all Bayatis is irrelevant, as obviously that Sheikh you're citing doesn't represent all Bayatis either. I have literally cited 5 articles (that I found with googling, in case you wonder) and one Wikipedia article. You still fall short of any of that.--Ermanarich (talk) 15:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Where exactly is the proof of what you are claiming in the source? Mteiritay (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I already wrote that on my edit on this talk page on April 8. Really happy to hear that you apparently still haven't taken the time to read that. --Ermanarich (talk) 15:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

This page, with sources, clearly states it is an Arab tribe: https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D9%86%D9%8A_%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA.

As well as these sources: https://www.alnwrsraby.com/17178/

https://albayyna-new.net/content.php?id=41276

https://alashair.forumarabia.com/t72-topic

Just because someone else claims they are Turkmen with no real evidence does not change the reality.

Your sources regarding the Turkmen population refer to the district not the town. And since there are Turkmen villages nearby this could be referring to them so you are not justified here.

Until you can disprove all of this the page stays as it is. Mteiritay (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright, maybe it helps if we split up the discussion in the different sections where we disagree, so we can find a better ground for each to agree on (1. The name and spellings 2. The question of Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek and 3. The question of the ethnicity of the Bayat tribe):

1. That the spelling Sulayman Beg is also widespread, has already been established by sources and it makes sense to add, as it's a considerable difference to the spelling with K. As I already argued, dialect spellings are included in Wikipedia articles, such as in the one of the article of Hamburg. If we also add the Turkmen spelling here, I would say, depends on what agreement we can reach on the second point of our discussion.

2. There is no Sulaiman Bek district, only a subdistrict, which also is the lowest administrative division of Iraq, meaning that there is no administrative difference between Sulaiman Bek town and subdistrict. Also, the Al Arabiya article talks about Sulaiman Bek explicitly, not the subdistrict.

3. Now, to the Bayat tribe. It is rather surprising that you link the Arabic Wikipedia page and say "with sources", when not only are there aren't any sources cited, but also a disclaimer at the top of the article notifying the reader about that. The other sources you added say that the Bayat tribe is part of the Tayy confederation/qabilah, but don't speak about the ethnicity. In fact, it is a widespread phenomenon of tribes of other ethnicities joining Arabic tribal confederacies over time. One example would be the Bakri tribe from Raqqah, which incidentally is also part of the Tayy confederacy but is a Kurdish tribe. Thus, your sources specify the tribal affiliation of the Bayat, but not their ethnicity.

Now, I would like to ask you again that we look at and decide about these issues separately, because that will hopefully make it easier to find consensus.--Ermanarich (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

1. The name is in Arabic which is literally translated to Sulaiman Bek but pronounced as Beg

2. Subdistrict is not the same as a town.

3. The Bayat tribe in Iraq is Arab. Mteiritay (talk) 15:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Please also notice the discussion going on at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Sulaiman Bek‎, a mediator volunteered to help in our dispute. Regarding your points, 1. there is no letter G in Arabic, so that argument falls flat, 2. Administratively not, also you didn't address the Al Arabiya article, 3. That is your opinion, which you haven't presented a source for yet. All you showed is that they belong to the Tayy tribal confederacy. I should mention again, that the question about the Bayat is not part of the disputed edit in the article either. Ermanarich (talk) 18:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

1. I said pronounced, not written. 3. That is a fact not an opinion. Mteiritay (talk) 22:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, I'd ask you to please engage in the mediation process at the dispute resolution noticeboard. You can find the link in my last comment. Ermanarich (talk) 17:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So @Mteiritay:, you're now just ignoring the mediation process and simultaneously started to edit the very article again the mediation process is about?--Ermanarich (talk) 11:25, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment on alternative spelling and minorities

Should the alternative spelling Sulayman Beg and the mention of the presence of a Turkmen minority be included in the article?--Ermanarich (talk) 12:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

For the alternative spelling, Yes, but only if you can find sources that actually use it. That said, it's more important to have an IPA spelling, as an English transliteration is never going to be perfectly accurate. Also, while I understand that Iraqi Arabic might not explicitly have a "g" sound (or rather voiced velar plosive/voiced uvular plosive), that doesn't mean a "g" isn't the best way to transliterate the sound into English (in this particular case, the "k" sound (voiceless velar plosive/voiceless uvular plosive) might be unconsciously voiced when actually spoken (similar to how English speakers tend to pronounce "bottle" more like "bodle")). For now, I suggest adding the IPA template (I would, but I don't know Arabic nearly well enough).

As for the Turkmen minority, Yes, but only if you can find at least one reliable source showing there to be a Turkmen minority that hasn't assimilated. Ships & Space_(Edits) 15:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment.

• I had in fact added a source and could add more, as there are literally thousands of articles spelling the town that way (Google search, 367k results for "Sulayman Beg Iraq", 98k for "Sulaiman Bek Iraq"). The name also comes from the old ruling title of Bey/Beg. Indeed, the Arabic alphabet has no corresponding letter for "g". If you look at the Wikipedia articles about this town in Kurdish or Turkmen/South Azerbaijani though, you can in fact see it written with a "گ" there, a "g".
• As for the minority, I have four sources (France24, Al Arabiya, Al Etihad and Al Iraq Times), of which the former three talk about Turkmens in Sulaiman Bek and the latter of the Bayat tribe settling there, stating that members speak Turkmen and Arabic.

The problem right now is, that the other user who keeps deleting my edits, @Mteiritay:, argues that the edits are either irrelevant, that the Turkmens are already mentioned as a category below or that the sources would not be reliable. However, they have so far proven unwilling to engage in the mediation process I tried to start before and have not engaged with a large portion of the arguments I've made.--Ermanarich (talk) 15:43, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Who says your sources are reliable or true? Mteiritay (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

They are not listed under Wikipedia:Deprecated sources. I have also seen that you have used my Al Iraq Times source in another article, so you seem to be considering that one as reliable. Not only that, your latest edit on here states that it is an Arab majority town, not exclusively Arab. So who are these others, if not Turkmens as stated in several sources I have provided?--Ermanarich (talk) 15:59, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Mteiritay - Do you have any questions about the reliability of the sources? If so, you can ask them at the Reliable Source Noticeboard? Questions about the reliability of sources should be asked there. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason that you didn't ask those questions at DRN? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no real proof of user's claims. Mteiritay (talk) 20:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

You can not just repeat yourself over and over again without actually addressing any of the questions presented to you or elaborate what you mean beyond that brief statement. France 24 for example is literally a French state-owned international news television network. Why is what they are writing no "real proof"?--Ermanarich (talk) 21:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

(invited by the bot) On the first question, we're here to inform. If Sulayman Beg is widely used as a name for the same town, we should inform the readers of that. If you can find a suitable sources that refers to both spellings and that the refer to the same village that would be ideal. North8000 (talk) 17:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

I did add two sources there (), the first being the popular Iraqi news media Shafaq, the second being the International Organization for Migration. I could also add many more (BBC, AL Jazeera, Washington Institute, Institute for the Study of War, Reuters, Time Magazine, Business Insider,...) but the user didn't accept the sources I used before and don't think they will accept these ones now either.--Ermanarich (talk) 18:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

And what would French TV know about Iraqi demographics? Mteiritay (talk) 00:23, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

My post that you indented under was about usage of the name Sulayman Beg. Is your post about usage of that name? North8000 (talk) 18:18, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. Their reply is already older, but was accidentally posted below the references. I put it back above, but it's not an answer to your comment. Ermanarich (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

(Invited by the bot) Regarding inclusion of mention of the Turkmen minority, for the sake of incoming participants, Ermanarich could you say exactly what you want to include and pick a source or two that you think most clearly and credibly says / supports that, and provide the details so that others may look? North8000 (talk) 18:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The Al Arabiya article I used says "وينتشر التركمان في قضاء تلعفر, غرب الموصل, وصولا الى التون كوبري وكركوك وتازه وداقوق وطوز خورماتو وسليمان بيك وامرلي وينكجا في نواحي محافظتي صلاح الدين وكركوك", which translates to "The Turkmens are distributed in the Tal Afar district west of Mosul, over to Altun Kupri, Kirkuk, Taza, Daquq, Tuz Khurmatu, Suleiman Bek, Amirli and Yengiche districts in Salah ad-Din and Kirkuk." The Opensooq article already used as a source in the article also mentions the al-Bayat tribe and says its one of the oldest Turkic Oghuz tribes and that they speak Turkmen, Arabic and Kurdish. Ermanarich (talk) 19:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Could you also say what the text is that you propose to include regarding this? North8000 (talk) 20:42, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure, you can see it in this edit, it's "There also is a Turkmen minority in the town." and "The al-Bayat tribe speaks Iraqi Arabic and Iraqi Turkmen".--Ermanarich (talk) 21:31, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The Bayat tribe is an Iraqi Arab tribe, not 'turkic oghuz', as included in my sources. I am not going to allow you to add misinformation and lies to Wikipedia. Mteiritay (talk) 12:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

References

References