Talk:Sundhi

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4064:4E1F:32AC:0:0:770A:7307 (talk) 19:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC) 

Untitled

Originally they are from orissa . Districts such as Angul,Denkanal, Ganjam and jajpur are most common place to find a sundhi family . Some are well educated , well established and some are in very high society family.

RfC - Expert needed

I found this article while looking up some test/vandalism edits for an ISP user. Multiple edits by such users had broken the wikification of the text and the lack of punctuation makes it very difficult to read. I reverted it back to the last legible version and updated a rotted link, but I'm not knowledgable on the castes of India. It needs input and editing from an expert on the sociology of India. Blue Riband► 03:24, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

It’s not included in SC of Bengal

Please re phase this is Mis leading 2405:201:A406:3834:61C2:AF2A:D27C:42A (talk) 13:06, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 14:53, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Soundik does not belong to scheduled caste in West Bengal

Hi Please remove the line that “ this caste included in scheduled caste of West Bengal” You are getting confused with sunri and soundik/sudi. If the attachment which you have included of West Bengal talks about sunri not soundik our sudi. 2405:201:1007:A158:C03A:A61B:A335:BFE1 (talk) 10:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Not done: I am sure ample WP:RS have been provided. Please read them, and come back if the content is misrepresenting them in any way. Voicing personal opinions will not get you anywhere. Also read WP:OR; WP:NPOV. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 07:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect info

I am soundik of WB we are not sc here . 2405:201:1007:A158:153E:C579:C634:4893 (talk) 07:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

"I belong to this caste but I'm not SC here" is your opinion.

Wikipedia is not for voicing opinions, but for representation of everything and all people in neutral points of view.

If you really want to discuss and/or voice your opinions about anything, you can visit WikiNews.

For more details, please see WP:EP, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:MOS, WP:MOS#Grammar_and_usage and WP:ES.

—CrafterNova ^{[ TALK ]  [ CONT ]} 13:59, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Sunri SC Status In West Bengal - A Clarification

"Sunri" is a small and miniscule section within broad Shoundik Community, assigned SC status in West Bengal and present only in West Bengal, the reasons and factors behind is more of a local, political and socio-economic one in nature , rather than a historical one. It can't be generalised and get applied on all India basis across North to South. Again, Shoundik is not a caste , as is generally understood to be, but a Community comprising many castes and Sub-castes within its fold. The list of these sub-castes is very long. And would not be proper altogether to discuss here. Interested persons may search for appropriate references and sources. 2409:4064:4E1F:32AC:0:0:770A:7307 (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Right ! Amazon Dark (talk) 00:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Wrong info

Wrong info in point 3 2405:201:1007:A0B0:5527:3D57:9492:DDAE (talk) 07:36, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

JockerEdit (talk) 13:27, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi I am from this caste and I it’s not in scheduled caste in n West Bengal as well . It’s same like Bihar and Jharkhand . The reference is of sunri caste not for sundhi or soundik. Can you please remove the word key Dalit instead you can mention vashya caste I don’t know how to edit in format . so I am request you …. JockerEdit (talk) 13:27, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done @JockerEdit: According to this source, the Shunri adn Shoundika are same. If you have a recent source (preferably governement or news) which considers the caste as OBC in West Bengal rather than SC, please link it here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:21, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/33939/1/11015672.pdf

https://sundicaste.com/history/

You can find all the history over here with reference JockerEdit (talk) 16:30, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Correct details

Request you to remove the term schedule caste and Dalit it’s very wiring info need sone one who know how to edit

https://sundicaste.com/history/

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/33939/1/11015672.pdf JockerEdit (talk) 16:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

@JockerEdit: https://sundicaste.com/history/ ← will not be helpful since it is from the community itself, failing WP:Independent policy. https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/33939/1/11015672.pdf may work, but it is difficult to navigate. Please tell me the page number where it is written that Sundhis is Bengal are OBC. Also give credentials of the writer. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:58, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Is it correct to generalise Sundhi caste under Dalit community based on one state?

If Shunri caste is a Dalit community in West Bengal, there exists a separate page for Shunri caste and Dalit community status should be written in that page and not in the Sundhi caste page here. How can we generalise it as Dalit community in the Sundhi page when the Sundhi/Sudi/Sundi caste comes under Other Backward Caste in five States of Odisha, Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Bihar and Jharkhand. And also Sundi/Sondi caste comes under Backward Castes - Group D in 2 states of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.

So, if the Sundhi caste comes under Backward Community in 7 states, how can we say that it is a Dalit community based on the opinion of a single person, Suratha Kumar Malik, who talks about the Sundhi caste of Odisha and at the same time mentions it as the Dalit community even though it is not a Dalit community in Odisha. According to the following Government of India resource mentioned below, the Odisha state government itself recognises Sundhi as OBC. Opinions and original research are not accepeted as reliable sources in Wikipedia.

Even Baishya Saha caste also comes from Shunri caste, shall we call the Baishya Saha caste as Dalit community? If someone does not come with proper answers with reliable resources, as the original page creator of Sundhi caste, I will remove all the references mentioning Sundhi caste as Dalit community.

I am providing all the sources mentioning Sundhi caste as a Backward Community in 7 states.

Caste No. 160 in http://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/cl/orissa.pdf Caste No. 59 in http://www.ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/cl/chattisgarh.pdf Caste No. 65 in http://www.ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/cl/madhya.pdf Caste No. 122 in http://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/cl/jharkhand.pdf Caste No. 83 in http://ncbc.nic.in/Writereaddata/cl/bihar.pdf Page No. 22, Caste No. 42 in https://psc.ap.gov.in/Documents/NotificationDocuments/10_2019.pdf Page No. 7, Caste No. 42 in http://www.tsmesa.in/2015BCW_MS16.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhuvannalla (talk • contribs) 06:23, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Greetings,@Bhuvannalla: Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. We can not remove a high quality source simply because one editor disagree. The government sources provided by you, do not meet WP:RS. Such material, likely lacks the fact checking that reputable publishers provide. You cannot use them to counter the obvious RS source. Regarding infobox details, I agree with you ; the reason being we do not add varna related stuffs on infobox. Furthermore, editors do not own wikipedia articles, including ones who create. I am pinging several users who have recently been involved in either addition or removal of content to enter this discussion:

• @JockerEdit:
• @Fylindfotberserk:

-- Dr.Pinsky (talk) 09:49, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I believe the phrase Koraput district needs to be added in the sentence → According to Suratha Kumar Malik, Sundhi castes belong to the Dalit community, who are hooch traders and do small businesses ← somewhere, since that's where the study was done. I'm OK with the removal of the varna stuff from infobox. That parameter has caused a lot of problems in many Wikipedia caste articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Sundi/Sudi caste comes under Vaisha community not Dalit.

(Dalit is term used for SC category).

And Sundi/Sudi are Traders. As, Sudi/Sundi traditionally associated with the distillation and selling of liquor. Sunri can be said as Dalit as Sunri comes under SC.

Also, Sunri and Sudi are two different caste

Sudi is a sub Group of Bania in moat of the states you can check central obc list for State of Bihar, Assam. Here it is clearly mentioned Bania including Sudi comes under BC2 which means upper class OBC.

So, please kindly remove that Sunri form Sundi.

Also, that Dalit word for Sudi/Sundi as they are upper class OBCs not Dalit. Raj Hanse (talk) 17:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky I cannot agree with your statement saying, "Such material, likely lacks the fact checking that reputable publishers provide." In India, Government sources are the most reliable resources because based on those sources only, reservations are provided to different castes. If any person other than those mentioned in the list, gets reservations illegally, he will be put behind the bars. I agree with your statement "editors do not own wikipedia articles" but at the same time I created the page after doing lot of research. I think the author, Suratha Kumar Malik based on whose statement this mess is created, is in confused state. In his Article, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0974354520140103, he mentions that SCs, STs and OBCs come under Dalits. But Indian Constitution calls only SCs as Dalits and not OBCs or STs. You can look at Dalit page in Wikipedia for confirmation. Based on his assumption that OBCs are called Dalits, he might have mentioned Sundhi caste as a Dalit community. So, we cannot rely on his personal opinion source.

@Fylindfotberserk, the mess is created just because of one author, Suratha Kumar Malik, who thinks all the OBC castes as Dalit castes. Then we need to modify hell lot of Wikipedia pages to mention all the OBC castes as Dalit castes. So, it will be better to mention Sundhi caste as OBC caste and Shunri caste as Dalit caste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bhuvannalla (talk • contribs) 10:51, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm talking about a middle ground accommodating the existing sources, mention Koraput district for the specific case and remove 'Dalit' from the infobox. As for mentioning which is what, better to go by what is written is the sources so as not to maintain WP:NOR. That is assuming OBC or SC as Dalit is WP:SYNTH if not written like that in the source. As for the SC in West Bengal, this source clearly says that Shunri is a synonym for Shoundika, a synonym of Sundhi. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

That is why I put the heading, "Is it correct to generalise Sundhi caste under Dalit community based on one state?"

In India, when an SC, who gets reservation in his state, moves and settles into another state, he becomes a general caste, we won't call him an SC then. Then, how can we generalise Sundhi caste of other states as Dalit caste in the main Article of Wikipedia. I am not able understand how mentioning Koraput district in the Article will eliminate Dalit community tag to Sundhi caste. If Baishya Saha caste comes from the Shunri caste in the West Bengal and is tagged as general caste in West Bengal itself. How come Sundhi caste from other states are equated to Shunri caste of West Bengal and given a Dalit community tag. I can give lot reliable sources mentioning Baishya Saha and Shunri as same castes, then can we call the Baishya Saha caste as Dalit caste?

If we go by your argument "Shunri is a synonym for Shoundika, a synonym of Sundhi", Sundhi caste is also called Sodhi caste in many states, can we equate Sundhi caste to Sodhi caste. Bhuvannalla (talk) 11:41, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

You are assuming a lot of original researches:

1) I am not able understand how mentioning Koraput district in the Article will eliminate Dalit community tag to Sundhi caste - If we are going to keep the sentence based on the Suratha Kumar Malik's source then mentioning Koraput is a must since that source only mentions the term Dalit for the Sundhis of Koraput. The govt sources on Sundhis in Odisha or other states do not mention the term Dalit. As for the infobox, I'm OK with removal of varna parameter since mentioning varnas in infobox particularly causes caste wars, I've seen it many times.

2) If Baishya Saha caste comes from the Shunri caste in the West Bengal and is tagged as general caste in West Bengal itself. How come Sundhi caste from other states are equated to Shunri caste of West Bengal and given a Dalit community tag. I can give lot reliable sources mentioning Baishya Saha and Shunri as same castes, then can we call the Baishya Saha caste as Dalit caste? - I don't know what you are trying to imply by stating 'Dalit tag'. Nowhere in the sources used for West Bengal, or any other state in the article use term Dalit. Only OBC and SC are mentioned. If you are equating SC with Dalit then it is your original synthesis not supported by source.

3) It is not my argument, I quoted a source that said that. Sundhi caste is also called Sodhi caste in many states, can we equate Sundhi caste to Sodhi caste - this source specifically equates Shoundhik to Shunri and also mentions 'distilling and selling of spirits' as the occupation, which matches with the castes occupation in the article. Sodhi a Punjabi Khatri clan is not involved with the distilling occupation so can't be equated here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I am giving answers point wise to your queries.

1)If the reliable govt sources on Sundhis in Odisha or other states do not mention the term Dalit, how can we generalise the caste as Dalit if Suratha Kumar Malik's work is based on Koraput district of Odisha and not of West Bengal? The reliable govt sources on Sundhis in Odisha or other states mention Sundhi as OBC. In India, a person cannot be both OBC and Dalit at the same time (in any state).

2)For "Nowhere in the sources used for West Bengal, or any other state in the article use term Dalit. Only OBC and SC are mentioned.", the main Wikipedia article says "According to Suratha Kumar Malik, Sundhi castes belong to the Dalit community, who are hooch traders and do small businesses." I am objecting to the term "Dalit community".

For "If you are equating SC with Dalit then it is your original synthesis not supported by source", Scheduled Castes (SC) is the official term for Dalits as per the Constitution of India. You can look at Dalit page in Wikipedia for confirmation.

3)Lot of castes in India are involved in distillation and selling of liquor like the castes of Kalwar_(caste) and Jaiswal_(surname). Can we say both Sundhi and Kalwar castes are same? So, can we generalise castes based on occupation? Bhuvannalla (talk) 14:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Bhuvannalla: Wikipedia is not for voicing personal opinions but for representation of previously published information by scholarly sources. Taking a government source as a reliable source is naive. Government sources should count as a reliable source is unrealistic. We are much better off going by the scholarly source. You may want to see WP:OR & WP:RS. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky: I am not giving personal opinions. I am giving government sources, which I think are more reliable. I have searched all the Wikipedia rules and guidelines for unreliability of the government sources. But I couldn't find anything regarding this. Could you please mention where in the Wikipedia guidelines, Government sources are counted as unreliable sources? Bhuvannalla (talk) 18:17, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Bhuvannalla:how can we generalise the caste as Dalit if Suratha Kumar Malik's work is based on Koraput district of Odisha and not of West Bengal? - I don't get the West Bengal part in your comments and why you are bringing it again and again. The source that mentions Dalit (which seems to be contentious here) is especially restricted to the study done on Koraput district of Odisha, and has nothing to do with West Bengal.

Lot of castes in India are involved in distillation and selling of liquor like the castes of Kalwar_(caste) and Jaiswal_(surname). Can we say both Sundhi and Kalwar castes are same? - You are forgetting the fact that name is also important. Kalwar and Jaiswal are not synonyms of Sundhi. If you can find a source that says Sundhis are also known as Kalwar and Jaiswal, the by all means add it. I can say that a lot of castes in India are involved in farming - Kappus, Jats, Kurmis, Marathas, Bhumihars, Mahishyas, Arains, etc. Are they all same? Lets not bring whataboutism to the discussion and focus on Suratha Kumar Malik's study only that uses the term Dalit. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I am bringing the West Bengal part, because the author, Suratha Kumar Malik, who hails from Midnapore in West Bengal thinks that Sundhi caste in Odisha comes under Dalit (synonymous to SC in India) community. I am contesting his point. He has given misinformation in his Article itself. He didn't do enough research on this. He didn't even try to look for, under which category Sundhi caste comes in Odisha before doing his research in the Koraput district of Odisha. Basing on his Article, we are giving misinformation in the Wikipedia page. Bhuvannalla (talk) 19:06, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Government sources are reliable when labelling a community as SC, OBC, EBC, General, etc only, because that's their department, these are government given terms. In the same way, social terms like Shudra, Brahmin, Dalit, Kshatriya, Vaishya, require sources from scholars who deal with this topic. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky: According to your talk page, you are not even accepting India TV, The Times of India, Dainik Bhaskar, Navbharat times, etc. as reliable resources. These sources along with government sources are accepted as reliable sources in millions of Wikipedia pages. I don't know why you are asking only for scholarly sources. Is it your personal opinion? Bhuvannalla (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Bhuvannalla: I am bringing the West Bengal part, because the author, Suratha Kumar Malik, who hails from XYZ region/community ← This is a typical case of WP:SOURCEGOODFAITH and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Wikipedia is not a platform for investigating the motive of an author. If the author is a scholar and his/her work satisfies the WP:RS criteria then why can't we mention it? We can always attribute the content to the author.

Dalit (synonymous to SC in India) community - The definitions largely overlap, but are not exactly the same. SC is a government given label and has a broader coverage, while Dalit is a social term coined by BR Ambedkkar. Note that Christian and Muslim Dalits do not enjoy the SC status as far as I know. If the source mentions one term and not the other, per Wikipedia WP:NOR policy, we shouldn't assume they are the same. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

@Bhuvannalla: Wikipedia policy ("not my personal opinion") requires you to provide scholarly material on caste or varna-related details. Those news articles & government sources certainly fail WP:RS. As explained by me earlier, we are better off going by the scholarly source. Let me quote your earlier comment "In India, when an SC, who gets reservation in his state, moves and settles into another state, he becomes a general caste, we won't call him an SC then". These categories (e.g. Sc or General) are often fluid and do not interpret anything about varnas. Fylindfotberserk explained it extensively and I don't think it needs any further explanation. Finally, I’m pinging Abecedare and Ekdalian. They are the most experienced in South Asia and have a deep understanding of the caste system. If they are generous with their time, I'd like to hear their perspectives. Thanks. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 07:27, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Dr.Pinsky and Fylindfotberserk. Hey Bhuvannalla, you are trying to logically establish your point of view, which is nothing but WP:OR in this case. The term 'Dalit' is no longer used by the Government (used by political parties), BTW. We can use the term here for castes based on reliable sources. All such Dalit castes may not have been granted SC status, therefore SC/OBC and Dalit are not mutually exclusive. I believe the explanation provided by Fylindfotberserk is more than enough. Hope you understand! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 18:26, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky I tried to explain you many time that sundhi caste does not belong to Dalit community I Agree they are obc in Jharkhand I am not denying the fact but based on one arrival you can not categorise this as dalit . We have multiple gov site which has been tagged in this talk page were it’s mentioned that soundik are obc and obc are not Dalit . Gov website are more reliable source than any publisher . I don’t want to break my head you don’t want to understand the fact so I have stopped editing this page . Since some one tagged me in this i am writing the same again JockerEdit (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@bhuvannalla I am with you and all the facts which you have mentioned are correct, but few people just want to argue instead of writing the fact . I know any soundik in Jharkhand and they are not Dalit even gov website also says the same JockerEdit (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Since I am not much aware of the font used in wiki along with header I can just request you all to remove the word Dalit as it irrelevant and it’s not correct at all . JockerEdit (talk) 20:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

It’s wrong info

Sudhi is not SC 2405:201:1007:A026:B5CA:1A5B:D6B3:E3EE (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Sundi is not Dalit community it is a Vaishya status community. Also there Sundi is different from Sunri of west-Bengal

"According to Suratha Kumar Malik, Sundhi castes belong to the Dalit community" this is completely wrong as in India Dalit community means untouchables or SC community and most of the State Sundi caste is recognized as OBC category. I myself a person belong to sundi caste and in obc not sc. You add "Vaishya community" instead of "Dalit community ". Also, in Bengal they are "Sunri" not "sundi". Sundi is a merchant community and their related groups are kalwar and kalal.

Please edit this "According to Suratha Kumar Malik, Sundhi castes belong to the Dalit community" to Sundi caste belong to "Vaishya Community ". Reference:- https://praveengupta2010.blogspot.com/2020/05/sundi-or-sunri-vaishya-or-saha-vaishya.html?m=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raj Hanse (talk • contribs) 16:45, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The content of the article has been discussed extensively above and the current version is per consensus. It would require much stronger sources than blogs, which are either way not permissible in Wikipedia. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Ooh! So you mean that just one stupid author Suratha Kumar Malik mentioned is a very strong source also he don't belong to this community... and all we people we are telling lie abut that! Right??

Don't you think that you guys are misleading this Raj Hanse (talk) 22:41, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

You can check here too here it is clearly written vaishya subcaste all the subcaste under vaishya are mentioned here you check "Shondrik" 1st row 15 cololoum... if not that check 'haihay dynasty'. You'll get whole knowledge that "Shondrik" belog to vaishya not Dalit. And that author 'Suratha Kumar Malik' published wrong article.

https://ramanisblog.in/2014/01/11/vaisya-surnames/ Raj Hanse (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse: You can't call a researcher "stupid" because that doesn't suit your narrative. See the discussion above, the quote from Mallik is attributed to him, and is not "our words" where the Sundhi or a specific region is termed as "Dalit", not the whole caste in every region. Secondly, Soundhik is another word for the caste, and in case of West Bengal per sources, the Shoundhika also know as Shunri, are categorised as SC. Third, we do not use blogs as sources, see WP:RS. Pinging @Dr.Pinsky: as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 08:36, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

First of all you told that "Sundhi in specific region is termed as Dalit" right? That specific region is "Orrisa" I request you please check the caste for reservation in Orrisa... you'll definitely find that "Sundhi" caste under OBC okay so they can't be Dalit in that region also. Now, as you used the word "Dalit for Sundhi". In Wikipedia Article it is mentioned that "Dalits are untouchables" categories as Scheduled castes.

So, Sundhis can't be called Dalit anywhere as they are under OBC.

Now, you said I can't call him "Stupid". How can publish an article without any research. All of us know that Sundhis means spirit-seller and landlords... and according to varnas. They comes under vaishya.

You can't post Sundhi as Dalit in this Wikipedia of even any specific region. Also, you haven't mentioned that region.

Guy's you are misleading many peoplea to be honest please do a proper research... i told you about Haihay dynasty.... their it is clearly written "Shoundrik". And Haihay dynasty originated from kshatriya and later they become Vaishya where most of them started with liquor business. This is the proper reality please have a proper research. Don't just relay on that fault publish "well i have mailed regarding this to shuratha kumar malik too".

Don't misguided guys. Raj Hanse (talk) 09:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk did you get it please have a proper research. And I accept That I can't call him "stupid".

Then it's you and him also who can't publish it wrong.

Calling Vaishya people's as Dalit Raj Hanse (talk) 09:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

And one more thing @Fylindfotberserk you want strong source right check BC-2 category of bihar https://biharhelp.in/bihar-all-caste-list/

This is official site and here it is clearly written that Under Bania caste there are many caste including "Sudi". This can be the most reliable source as it from the government officials. And no researcher is greater that government.

Please check my friend "Under BC category there is Bania and it's Sub-Caste including Sudi also".

And we also know that Bania fall under vaishya in Hindu varnas.

Please make a required correct Raj Hanse (talk) 10:25, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

"please do a proper research" - We do not do research in Wikipedia, we replicate whatever is written in the reliable sources, failing to do so will be contravening WP:NOR policy.

"you want strong source right check BC-2 category of bihar - We have already included the line that the Shundi in Bihar are categorised as OBC.

"and according to varnas. They comes under vaishya" "Bania fall under vaishya in Hindu varnas" - WE are not discussing varnas and Banias. A lot of Bania or vaish sub-castes fall within General Category while many under OBC. EXamples would be HM Amit Shah and PM Narendra Modi, respectively. I don't see why a small offshoot can't be SC when it is sourced from the WB state-government article.

"Also, you haven't mentioned that region." - I've added it.

Pinging @Sitush: as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk you should know that there is difference between Dalit "castes and Vaishya castes".

Vaishya are merchant's or landlords which "Sundhi/Sudi are".

And Dalits are outside the varna means they are untouchables and lowest caste category. They are not merchant's.

So, does it make any sense that Sundhi belong to Dalit community?.

If still you Believe that. Then please explain me Raj Hanse (talk) 13:19, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Fylingfotberserk is doing things correctly, Raj Hanse. You may not like it but we don't use blogs, we don't take the word of editors without reliable sources etc. I also have no idea why you think the biharhelp.in is "official" because it isn't: the official site would be somewhere in the .gov.in domain but in any case we tend no to use those lists because they're often impossible to decipher due to misspellings, contradictions etc (see WP:PRIMARY, which applies to the official lists). - Sitush (talk) 11:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush what is your reliable source?? That author "Suratha Kumar Malik" Article is your reliable source?

Means government source is not reliable for you but that author source is relaible? Are you serious?

If that "Suratha Kumar Malik" wrote that Sundhis are Dalit in Orrisa then why Orrisa government put Sundhi caste under OBC?

http://www.ncbc.nic.in/user_panel/GazetteResolution.aspx?Value=mPICjsL1aLt5iq8E5sHcb9aZw5ZegRBykGFGf48OgIp4fJY6woN7b1j2zCe3l0aO

This is Government of india site.

Check 83. Number... you'll find Sudi along with Bania caste or Vaishya subcaste. I should be the most legal document... you can check that Sudi caste is been put along with bania in obc... this means Sudi/Sundhi belong to "Vaishyas not Dalit". Raj Hanse (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Yes, I am serious, sorry. I haven't looked at the specific sources, merely explained how things are done here and why. It's ok not to like it but not liking it won't change things. - Sitush (talk) 13:10, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush

Ooh! So you mean that we whole indian population are stupid. And you guy's are write that author is right.

Our government is wrong but you people's and that author is right!! Okay Raj Hanse (talk) 13:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Did I say that? Please do not put words into my mouth. - Sitush (talk) 13:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Situshlisten people's have faith in this Wikipedia please don't mislead and do a proper research Don't relay on this author... check government sites. This is the Law here in India.

You spreading fault this will lead to mislead our society. Raj Hanse (talk) 13:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse You are not the first person to say this. Saying it will not change anything - finding reliable sources to support your statement will.

Legal documents are not usually great because we are not qualified to interpret them (see WP:PRIMARY). We also aren't allowed to draw conclusions by synthesising what two or more sources say.

Wikipedia has never claimed to be perfect. As far as I know, the world has kept turning despite any perceived imperfections. Doubtless, it will continue to turn despite what you object to here. That's just how it is, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 13:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush can you tell me which type of relaible source you want? You can you relay on that "maillik" Sources.

Do you know the meaning of "dalit"? If yes then you couldn't have even wrote this as Orrisa government only categories Sundhi under obc.

dalit means SC. Which Sundhi aren't Raj Hanse (talk) 13:56, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Yes, I know what dalit is, although I am not a reliable source & so can't assert something in an article based on my personal knowledge. WP:RS explains reliable sources.

I don't have time to take on this article as well as all the other stuff I am doing. I only came to this page to assure you that the advice you were getting is indeed how Wikipedia does things. - Sitush (talk) 14:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush I have a question how many report does it requires for the removal of a wikipedia page?? Raj Hanse (talk) 14:29, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse You would need to get WP:CONSENSUS at a deletion discussion, which would require the article to be listed at WP:AFD. However, consensus is not a vote, so it isn't about number of people, and this particular article will never be deleted anyway because it is a notable subject and has plentiful reliable sources.

Just in case you were thinking of it, I'll also point you to WP:MEAT. If someone, for example, gets a group of friends away from Wikipedia to support an action on Wikipedia, it will not end well for them or their friends. - Sitush (talk) 14:35, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush you know what there are not plenty of resources... there is only one resource which is completely wrong. If "surtha Kumar Malik" would be right na the caste must have been put under SC category. You guy's are such a stupid Raj Hanse (talk) 14:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse I can see ten cited sources at the moment. That is ample to assert notability, and tribes/castes etc are considered to be "inherently notable" anyway. The article will not be deleted even if 100 people turn up to ask for that. - Sitush (talk) 14:55, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush I'm not talking about that 10 cited source... I'm just talking about that "Dalit" word which was used for Sundhi caste people that was only one source. And you guys are completely relaying on that... as if "Suratha Kumar Malik" is your Step father. And he's god for you Raj Hanse (talk) 15:00, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Sorry, I thought you were wanting to have the article deleted. There is nothing I can do about the Malik source - I assume that it does pass our test of what constitutes a reliable source etc - Sitush (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Sitush @Fylindfotberserk I have a high quality source related to this page "Affairs of caste" this book is an autobiography of Sumeet Samos. I have it's book review https://scroll.in/article/1028378/anti-caste-rapper-sumeet-samoss-memoir-explores-an-alternate-politics-of-solidarity

Here he mentioned about upper-caste Hindus from coastal Odisha in the twentieth century as "Sundis" and the generation of Komtis.

here, this autobiography is of Koraput District where he told about struggle of dalit and Tribal.

He referred Sundis as upper-caste Hindus. Go through it Raj Hanse (talk) 10:12, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Autobiographies are not usually reliable sources. In fact, there is witticism concerning them being the best form of fiction. - Sitush (talk) 10:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush okay but it is published in world level... actually the author belong to Dalit Community and "Suratha Kumar Malik" published the article is not in world level. Infanct the writer of "Affairs of Caste". He mentioned upper class Hindus migrant form costal areas as "Sundhis".

I request you to go through it ones as I Don't have much knowledge about it I know autobiography are fiction... it's not like autobiography or autobiography of Sundhi people. This article is like voice of dalit againt upper class Hindus. Raj Hanse (talk) 10:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse: "You guy's are such a stupid ". "And you guys are completely relaying on that... as if "Suratha Kumar Malik" is your Step father. And he's god for you "

If you want to edit Wikipedia, you cannot engage in personal attacks on other editors. WP:CIVIL is a policy you must follow. If I were you, I would not try to threaten other Wikipedia editors, especially for something so insignificant. (responding to ping) CC:ToBeFree. Dr.Pinsky (talk) 18:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Yeah, Dr.Pinsky's advice is fine. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Dr.Pinsky it was not unsignificant... we should not mislead people by wrong information na. And I was providing them with proper resources and proof but then also. In above topics also people's have pointed questions... but nobody had paid attention to it. Atleast everybody should go through the provided sources Raj Hanse (talk) 19:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any connection being made between Sundis and upper-caste here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 19:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk

First look at paragraph no. 5 Here author has mentioned "the migration of upper-caste Hindus from coastal Odisha in the twentieth century, and the generation of Komatis who arrived after the Srikakulam rebellion of the ’70s."

Then in paragraph no. 9 author written "the monopolisation of resources by Sundi and Komati businesses in Koraput".

Here, you can see the author has mentioned upper-class Hindus as Sundi and generation of komtis.

earlier in "Suratha Kumar Malik" Artical also he mentioned migrants from costal area of Orrisa as Hindus. Raj Hanse (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I read it properly, there is no explicit mention, hence we can't use it, lest we want WP:OR in the article. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk you remember "Surtha Kumar Malik" mentioned migrants from costal area of Orrisa as Sundis.

And in this Article Author mentioned the migrants from costal Orrisa and komati caste.

And in 9th paragraph he mentioned Sundhi and komati caste.

So, we can conclude that author mentioned upper class hindus migrants from costal as Sundis.

As Surtha Kumar Malik also said migrants from costal.

Also, komti is a businesses class and falls under vaishya.

Just like sundi also Raj Hanse (talk) 20:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk here author just talked about 2 castes

One is Komati and another is Sundi.

Komati is been fine, So other High caste would be clearly Sundi.. it's so simple Raj Hanse (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk

Or else what do you think upper class hindus are termed as? 😂🤣 Raj Hanse (talk) 20:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Please read WP:OR. We cannot combine content from multiple sources or multiple sections to reach a conclusion. In this case, Sundhi and Komati castes are mentioned in one section, in another something about 'upper-castes' is mentioned, without explicitly stating that those 'upper-castes' are Sundhi and Komati. We cannot use it per WP:NOR. Also sholarly sources are preferred over news articles. I'll continue the discussion tomorrow. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk okay I see... but here author only talked about 2 castes na. That's why it can a high quality source.. also, in news Sundi are never termed as SC or Dalit. Also this book "Affairs of caste" is published in global level. Raj Hanse (talk) 20:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk you said you will continue the discussion. But there was no reply from you side. Let me clear you this was not a news article. This was a proper book written by a scholar. Also, he lives in Orrisa... so I think his Sources should be more preferably than Malik... as Samos source can be connected to government source Raj Hanse (talk) 06:47, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

As I said, there is no explicit mention, hence we can't use it per WP:NOR in the article. Can you post the book source and confirm that Samos is a scholar of this subject? Pinging @Sitush:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk actually I'm new for this Wikipedia... I can provide you with quality source rest for editing purpose I request you. Also, this I can confirm that samos is a scholar of this subject as I've watch many of his interview regarding this book and in Wikipedia page of "Sumeet Samos" it was mentioned that he's a scholar. Raj Hanse (talk) 10:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse Attending a one-year course on Modern Asian Studies does not make someone a scholar. (And I am a bit mystified as to why that was an MSc, not an MA; also regarding whether he passed any examination).

Also, activists rarely produce work that is anywhere near neutral in its arguments when addressing the subject of their activism. - Sitush (talk) 10:45, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush it's non of your business to judge him whether he passed examination... also, you are no one to put logic here. He's a scholar by his degree you are not a principal @Sitush just keep in mind. Whether he studied for 1 year or more you are no one to judge... who are you? If you are bringing logics here there come to me... I'll make direct connection and sense Raj Hanse (talk) 14:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse see WP:RS. We make judgements all the time. - Sitush (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush I've already read it. It's a reliable source Raj Hanse (talk) 14:29, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse No activist is a reliable source for fact. At best, they are reliable only for their own opinion. - Sitush (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush he's not activist. He's a scholar. Which Malick is not... as he's not right according to government. So don't spread wrong Raj Hanse (talk) 14:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Raj Hanse He is an anti-caste activist. He says as much in interviews etc. His whole career is based on it. - Sitush (talk) 14:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sitush But it's according to you and you Noone to decide.... I've checked all government Sources and every source. Where your point of view is wrong. so stay away. You not great than government. You said provide source of scholar then I've provided. Now it's done. Wikipedia is not for you logics.

@Bhuvannalla

@JockerEdit Raj Hanse (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

The article clearly states, "According to Suratha Kumar Malik, Sundhis of Koraput district of Odisha belong to the Dalit community ...." What's your problem? Our article categorically mentions that this is the view of the author ("According to Suratha Kumar Malik"), and the statement is restricted to Koraput only! It may or may not be correct, but it is reliably sourced, and fine, as per our policies! We have to respect Wikipedia's policies; why will you remove the same! If you have any reliable source mentioning they are OBC or whatever, please provide the url here! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Yeah I do have reliable Sources that Sundhis are not Dalit

The very first

https://stsc.odisha.gov.in/sites/default/files/2021-09/OBC_List_Central_Web-upload_.pdf

This is Central List of OBC for the State of Orrisa... here it is clearly mentioned that Sundhi comes under OBC.

As you told that you have been editing caste article since 10 years... then you should know that a cast can't be OBC and Dalit at same time as Dalit means lower in society. Raj Hanse (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Now second source

https://scroll.in/article/1028378/anti-caste-rapper-sumeet-samoss-memoir-explores-an-alternate-politics-of-solidarity

This book is published in world level "Affairs of caste" here the author has referred upper class hindus as Sundhi who were migrants and komati caste as business caste. Also, this book is more reliable as it is published in world level which malik's article don't. Also, we can connect this book "Affairs of caste" with government list.

Now by the first source we can clear say if Sundhi caste in Orrisa belong to Dalit Community then government would never categories Sundi as obc in orrisa.

You have more then 10 years editing experience in caste Article you should know that an obc caste cannot be Dalit caste and in the book of "Affairs of caste" also can relate with government.

Still if you are not concluding of believing government of india it's your EXTORTION in this Wikipedia Raj Hanse (talk) 16:06, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Now here comes third source

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/patna-news/203-castes-in-bihar-to-choose-from-as-2nd-leg-of-survey-begins-april-15-101679588703223.html

Central list of Obc for the State of bihar

Here it is very clearly written that sundhi caste is a Sub-Caste of Bania and comes under BC-2 in state of bihar. Raj Hanse (talk) 16:09, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

One more thing how could you post an article if without any reality if surtha kumar malik source would be reliable then why it is different from government here... don't bri g that wikipedia policy's here as wikipedia never says to "publish wrong article".

which you guys are doing Raj Hanse (talk) 16:19, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Raj Hanse, please note that your 2nd source is not acceptable in caste articles and 3rd one is related to Bihar! @Sitush and Fylindfotberserk: can you please comment on this source? Can we use this source in order to present an alternate opinion that the caste is considered as OBC in Odisha! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 17:14, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Okay then 1st one also can you please provide me with reason "if surtha kumar malik told that Sundhis belong to dalit community".

Then why would government categories Sundhi in OBC..

as we all know that no Dalit community can belong to OBC Raj Hanse (talk) 17:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

We have to present all views, as per WP:NPOV! Ekdalian (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Okay I understand this policy that wikipedia should neutral... but you can read about topics in chat page... have a look there...

Many peoples and editor have put allegiance on this world "Dalit".

Even the creator of this page also. Are they all wrong? Any only you guys are right? Raj Hanse (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

And please can you elaborate why 2nd source cannot be used??

As this book is published in world level and is acceptable by everyone in our country... but this malik article is published and in not know by anyone...

And also, people are putting alligation that "how can he mention a caste as dalit". If govt. Consider them as OBC? Raj Hanse (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Please provide the credentials of the author, name of the publisher along with the year, and ISBN! Ekdalian (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

the book name is "Affairs of Caste" written by sumeet samos and published by Panthers Paw Press

ISBN : 9788195136513 Raj Hanse (talk) 17:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

As you said 3rd source is related to bihar can you please aad that "sundhi is sub-caste of bania community" Raj Hanse (talk) 17:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian: Alternative opinion like? The Sundhis being listed as OBC is already written in the sentence "The Sundhis are included in the Other Backward Class category in the states of Bihar, Jharkhand and Odisha". Are you suggesting sentence reframing of the "Koraput district" part? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk and @Ekdalian or you do one thing that remove that sentence that "Sundis are included in OBC in state of orrisa"

As Dalit and obc cannot be together at same time...

There's no meaning Raj Hanse (talk) 17:52, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: can you please check my latest edit? That's what I mean! You (or Sitush) may improve the same further! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 18:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Wait for others' opinion! That's what we mean when we talk about consensus. Ekdalian (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk But if a caste is categories as obc cannot be considered as dalit at same time.

Dalit means those lower caste who have no recognization.

But sundis are included in obc.

How can they considered at same time...

You can check that with any other caste in other article Raj Hanse (talk) 17:50, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I got this source from "Hyderabad Sondi Caste Welfare Association", according to which the Sundhi from Bihar are also "Scheduled Castes" alongwith the ones in West Bengal. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:53, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk then here it is also, written that that sundhi are claiming for "Vaishya status" write that sentence also remove that Dalit word from there also...

& I've the central list of obc for the state of bihar also which is published by government of india.

You can scroll and check... there

It is very clearly mentioned that Bania caste along with many sub-caste including Sundi are categories as BC 2 in Bihar. Please check Raj Hanse (talk) 17:59, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk the source you provide there also Sundhi are categories as OBC in state of Orrisa... I had already gone through that

And the source you provide by that also, you can conclude that sundi are not dalit.

But i didn't provide you that as we cannot relay on that Raj Hanse (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

You have again edited it wrong... "How can a caste consider Dalit and OBC at same time?"

Listen @Ekdalian if Sundhi are considered as dalit na they would have put this caste into SC category in Orrisa.

This article which you guys have edited is meaningless to be honest. Raj Hanse (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You don't get it, per our plicies, we are supposed give due weight to each view. THere is nothing wrong if Suratha Malik's view is added with attribution to him, since the govt ccategorisation is already adressed.- Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk I understand that...

Okay you said "that you give due weight to each view Right?"

Then, Aad this line also that in the "Sundhi is a sub-caste of Bania" as in bihar state it is very clearly written... the very first caste under bania is Sundi mention aad that also.

Then, they are claming for vaishya status aad that too..

Also, In the book of "Affairs of Caste" written by "sumeet samos" and published by "Panthers Paw Press"

"ISBN : 9788195136513"

[Where the author is from Koraput district of Orrisa only].

He mentioned Sundis as upper class add that also...

If you give weight to eich point.

Atleast, you should check the appropriate source which can connect to each other and has more weight along with which they are connected with government published source also.

Pinging @Ekdalian.

please check Raj Hanse (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Fylindfotberserk has answered your question! We are not supposed to judge whether the author is right or wrong, as per our policies! We all know the difference between Dalit and OBC; we can't suppress one opinion! Ekdalian (talk) 18:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian Sir then... okay there is another author also... and there are another source also where he has mentioned that "Upper class hindus as Sundhi" aad that also.. this will also comes under your policy.

Also Sir, the source which @Fylindfotberserk Sir provided there it was written that Sundhi are vaishya aad that also.

This will also right as per you policy. Raj Hanse (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Will check tomorrow! Also, wait for other experienced editors! Ekdalian (talk) 18:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian @Fylindfotberserk Sir everybody dose same thing.. They say "will check tomorrow" and they never come... and this article just mislead the whole public Raj Hanse (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Pinging @Bhuvannalla Raj Hanse (talk) 18:38, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian and @Fylindfotberserk shall we discuss?? Raj Hanse (talk) 12:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Raj Hanse, don't keep on writing messages one after another (very irritating)! This is a contentious topic, behavior is important, especially now that you have been blocked! Please let us know what else we can do. If you want to add content, provide the author's name, publisher, year and ISBN (apart from url & page number)! Ekdalian (talk) 13:42, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian So what should I do when you people's are irresponsible to you work...

& Don't tell me about the behavior fir you go and learn how to behave...

I don't care that i have been blocked there is nothing that I'm loosing...

When you guys are irresponsible at your work I can't do anything. So, don't you dare teach me lesson again. It's a public platform don't make it personally otherwise it will be worst for you.

Yeah I want to aad contact

Book name:- "Affairs of Caste"

Author:- "Sumeet Samos"

Publisher:- "Panthers Paw Press"

ISBN:- "9788195136513"

Author is from Koraput district orrisa

And he referred Sundhi as upper caste hindus. Raj Hanse (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian

Year: 2022 Raj Hanse (talk) 15:54, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I shall not interact with you because of your language; read WP:CIVIL! It's not my work dear, I tried to help you, and advised you for your benefit. Let some other experienced editor interact with you! All the best, Raj Hanse! Ekdalian (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Sumeet Samos is not reliable. I've said this before, I'm sure. He is a young Dalit activist and reliable sources need to be independent, which he clearly cannot be. He is reliable only for things he says about himself. - Sitush (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Even after lots of proof provided by People on this article you guys are doing This that.clearly tell us that you guys don't want to edit this page . Wkhanti (talk) 07:58, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ekdalian I provided more than 10 source that sundhi caste doesn’t belong to Dalit community. And Malik source is for koraput district which comes under Orissa government

and as per Orissa govt they are not Dalit rather they are OBC. The Dalit word is incorrect .@Raj Hanse also provided the evidence with respect to Orissa govt.

since @Sitush @Fylindfotberserk @Ekdalian you are not in support of editing this page I rest my case here but as per common ground at-least you must remove the word Dalit as it’s hurting people belive.you can consider the Orissa govt above the Malik article. JockerEdit (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@JockerEdit Are you Raj Hanse? - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely, another sock! Ekdalian (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

No I am not :)

however I do support the statement that sudhi are not Dalit as I know many sudhi and they are not Dalit.

but I don’t want to argue in this topic any more. JockerEdit (talk) 10:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)