Talk:Szczuczyn pogrom

This article was nominated for deletion on 5 December 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

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23 November 2017[edit]

Please correct language errors, eg. Poles, not poles, Szczuczyn.
What is the Polish police ?
Bzura is a river, perhaps Bzury?
Please use English language (Відвідано)Xx236 (talk) 13:42, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
what is the source of the Szczuczyn pogrom name? As far as I understand it was a series of crimes which took place in different places. Xx236 (talk) 13:56, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article relies largely upon a single hostile source interviewed in the Polish language for two newspaper articles fitted with sensationalist titles geared towards maximum commercial impact. The book for sale, advertised by them, is neither in the source of this entry, nor is it quoted by anyone in peer-reviewed works anywhere. Poeticbent talk 16:26, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tomasz Sudoł (2015-11-27) review of book by Mirosław Tryczyk, Histmag.org

próżno szukać u autora tej książki ... warsztatu badacza-historyka i szerokiej wiedzy na temat omawianego okresu ... zasłania się źródłami, żongluje nimi w celu wykazania słuszności przyjętej z góry tezy i tworzy imitacje badań jak jest w tym przypadku. Zaledwie kilka pierwszych stron w zupełności wystarcza by zrozumieć, czym jest ta książka. Mamy bowiem do czynienia z publikacją z wyraźnie postawioną tezą i nie ważne, że nie znajduje ona potwierdzenia w źródłach archiwalnych. [1]

Translation:
The search for quality workmanship, and for the author's broader knowledge of the period is destined to be futile. He forms a theses upfront and than creates an illusion of research. The opening pages reveal already that the publication is slanted toward a particular point of view, which is not confirmed by the archival sources he brings. — Tomasz Sudoł Poeticbent talk 18:00, 23 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The book has been criticized by Persak [2]. Tryczyk replies [3].Xx236 (talk) 11:09, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Krzysztof Persak (2016), Wydmuszka (The empty eggshell), ISBN 9788363444488.

Mamy bowiem do czynienia z książką, która udaje poważną ... a w rzeczywistości jest nieudolnie skonstruowanym kolażem cytatów z chaotycznie dobranych źródeł ... autor z jednej strony ignoruje dorobek naukowy poprzedników, z drugiej w zakamuflowany sposób z niego korzysta, przekraczając niekiedy granicę plagiatu ... Miasta śmierci są – w mojej opinii – pracą słabą, pozbawioną profesjonalnego warsztatu naukowego, wtórną poznawczo i jałową intelektualnie ... Natalia Aleksiun w internetowej „Kulturze Liberalnej” ... wskazała na jego nieporadność warsztatową i słabą znajomość realiów epoki.[21][4] Poeticbent talk 14:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Translation:
We are dealing with a book that pretends to be serious ... but in fact, is a poorly constructed collage of quotations from chaotically chosen sources ... the author either ignores the relevant works of others in one area, or crosses the boundaries of plagiarism in other. His work - in my opinion - is weak, repetitious, and intellectually empty ... Natalia Aleksiun in the online "Liberal Culture" ... pointed to his clumsiness and poor knowledge of the history of the period.[21] Poeticbent talk

No context[edit]

The page doesn't explain the context. Szczuczyn was annexed to Germany in 1941 (not to GG as someone may expect). German crimes on Jews and ethnic Poles are not described, so it's WP:Cherrypicking. Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The lead says in June and July of 1941, but also a crime in August is described. Xx236 (talk) 07:57, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Doubts and sources[edit]

The author of this article is not familiar with the fact of the hostility of some historians. Myroslav Trychyk for example. All sources are related to the topic but you can add more links to improve informativity. There is no need to indicate the source after each word. It's enough to do it at the end of a sentence or paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roman Frankiv (talk • contribs) 09:30, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my critique. Xx236 (talk) 09:41, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Learn and follow the rules please ... DO NOT remove warning templates until you deal with the lies. Thank you, Poeticbent talk 14:58, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meanwhile the goyim were transporting rolls of barbed wire.[edit]

A 1945 letter is a primary source, which should be quoted by a historian in a secondary source.

Examples of problems:

The Poles didn't have any rolls of barbed wire nor were they allowed to construct anything. They apparently were ordered by the Germans to transport the rolls. Xx236 (talk) 09:47, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another quote by the Polish police, simple urchins and German soldiers. There was no Polish police in the region. The Germans had guns, so they controlled, not the alleged police nor urchins. Xx236 (talk) 09:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup + sourcing[edit]

I believe I remedied most if not all of the issues pointed out above with a rather complete rewrite + better sourcing to RS. More sources are available - however I did try to stick to what is available online for easier WP:V by other editors.Icewhiz (talk) 20:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

szczuczyn.com[edit]

How reliable is [5]? Seems like just someone's personal website and research project. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:21, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All I've been able to find is their 'researchers' page here. It lists no credentials, nor is there anything else to indicated that it isn't self published. Perhaps other editors know something beyond this, but it doesn't seem to meet with being a reliable source. Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:58, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The linked page is an online copy of the yizkor book - the site's research is not used in the article. The Yizkor book (which was published in 1954 (not by the site), republished in 1987 and translated by Dr. Alex Stone is reliable as a PRIMARY source for attributed statements of survivors - and is widely used (as other yizkor books) in literature covering destroyed communities. In the article, the yizkor book is used as a second ref (to a copy of the primary source) on top of a journal article by Kopstein&Wittenberg - a link to the full testimony of Soika-Goldin that they discuss and quote (pages 14 and 15 in K&W) extensively in the journal article (reffed there as Destruction of the Jewish Community of Szczuczyn. (1987). Tel Aviv, Israel: Former Residents of Szczuczyn. (Original work published 1954)). The entire sentence in the article is fully supported by K&W's journal article.Icewhiz (talk) 04:38, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see that these aren't referenced. It might be an idea to change the Dr. Stone translation into a reference rather than an external link. I'll try to find a moment to find the relevant details from the world catalogue (or whatever source I can dig up) in the next couple of days in order to expand the citations. If I don't do it by the end of the weekend, could someone ping me and remind me? Thanks. Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:24, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The paper by Kopstein quotes "Destruction of the Jewish Community of Szczuczyn". (1987). Tel Aviv, Israel: Former Residents of Szczuczyn. (Original work published 1954). So we have one source quoted in different ways. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Radio Poland?[edit]

The quoted text comes from "Gazeta Wyborcza".Xx236 (talk) 07:04, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wokół Jedwabnego[edit]

The most reliable source is "Wokół Jedwabnego", not quoted here. Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another source - "Intimate Violence" by Kopstain and Wittenberg, not mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NOENG + state agency with some issues for "Wokół Jedwabnego". As for K&W - we have a journal article by K&W covering Szczuczyn at some length - the Wikipedia article was written prior to the K&W book coming out in June 2018, however I would hazard a guess that the book perhaps mostly duplicates the journal article in this sub instance (the book includes, of course, also many other locations) - worth checking though.Icewhiz (talk) 07:25, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Encyclopedia (see below) quotes IPN results. It's not a forum to present your personal, extremely biased and unsourced, opinions.

Now the book exists, so who cares about the low quality Wikipedia article - see below. The article has to be rewritten, it contains errors.Xx236 (talk) 08:43, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

the German Gestapo took control of the town ?[edit]

Gestapo means Secret State Police. Did a secret police control small towns to kill civilians? Einsatzgruppen did.Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A different description[edit]

https://sztetl.org.pl/pl/miejscowosci/s/1066-szczuczyn/99-historia-spolecznosci/138115-historia-spolecznosci Xx236 (talk) 07:26, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Crago L., Szczuczyn, [w:] Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos 1939–1945, Vol. II, Ghettos in German-Occupied Eastern Europe, Part A, red. P. Megargee, M. Dean, Bloomington 2012, s. 969. Xx236 (talk) 08:17, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The text supports some of my critics, eg. SS not Gestapo. One of three brothers who were pogrom leaders worked for Germans since 1940.Xx236 (talk) 08:39, 1 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]