Talk:Taekkyon

Description of Taekkyeon

HTAIK-KYEN-HA-KI [택견하기]--- KICKING (Fr. Savate).

Htaik-kyen-ha-ki is a combat between two players, chiefly with the feet. They take their positions with their feet apart, facing each other, and each endeavors to kick the other's foot from under him. A player may take one step backward with either foot to a third place. His feet, therefore, always stand in one of three positions. One leads with a kick at one of his opponent's legs. He moves that leg back and kicks in turn. A high kick is permitted, and is caught with the hands. The object is to throw the opponent.

This game also occurs in Japan, but the Chinese laborers from Canton do not appear to be familiar with it. Culin, Stewart. Korean games with notes on the corresponding games of China and Japan (1895) pg. 39

The image for the section for those living outside the US: http://books.google.com/books?id=50oQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA38-IA1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2fzoxGvw8_d8N8D5rLfxj15wzf6Q&ci=73%2C658%2C778%2C321&edge=0

Tonsdon (talk) 01:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

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Where in the above paragraph is stated that Htaik-kyen-ha-ki is a martial art? It is presented as a game, big difference! The article requires more references without twisting the information to sale the idea that taekkyon is something it wasn't.

Also "Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early..." The paintings mentioned in this paragraphs do depict wrestling, but from the second one one cannot say if this is striking, wrestling or dancing (the same argument is used in Tae Kwon Do circles). We cannot conclude what is stated in the article. Also according with historian Stanley E. Henning, the area where this tombs are, were under Chinese control from (108 BC - 313AD) and earlier Chinese sources already diferentiated between wrestling and striking. see Henning, Stanley. Traditional Korean Martial Arts, JAMA V.9, N.1, 2000

Last but not least in the Muyedobotongji (1790) there is no mention of Taekkyon as a martial art; the section on boxing is based on Ming general Qi Jiguan's Jinxiao Xinshu as there are many other sections along with Japanese martial arts. In the translation of this book by H. Kim, The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea, it is said in the King's foreword: "…Archery has been the only official martial art and other forms of military arts were unheard of…". The historical section must be edited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.39.126 (talk) 03:58, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

--Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Like I said before, Stanley E. Henning is not an archeleogist, nor an archeleogist who knows the field of Korean studies, but only amateur historian of Chinese martial arts. Goguryeo tombs were not Chinese, and only have Chinese Han influences. Btw, there are no Han tombs that depict wrestling and striking as he claims. Muyedobotongji was written in a way to learn how to handle weapons. It's methology was heavily influenced by Qi Jiguan's book but had clear Korean influences/indigeneous weapons and improvements on the existing methods of Qi Jiguan's book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartialArt12 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Where/when before?Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Stanley E. Henning made at least one big flaw hin his article about taekkyeon in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts article. He writes on page 11 in his article „Traditional Korean Martial Arts“ (Vol. 9 Nr. 1, year 2000) that taekkyon is not the correct term, but rather takkyon was correct. According to him, takkyon would mean "push the shoulder". He also speculates that this - in his eyes - wrong spelling "appears to be based on a lack of knowledge of the Chinese characters or an attempt to disassociate it from possible foreign origins".

Unfortunately, Stanley is completely wrong here. Takkyon and Taekkyon are just different dialects. In Seoul, people often say ae instead of a (also "Ariraeng" instead of "Arirang" or "Aegi" instead of "Agi").

Moreover, there are no Hanja for Taekkyon. It is unknown how the term taekkyon developed. The meaning "push the shoulder" goes back to an Idu-writing for taekkyon in the poem "Haedong Jukji" (published in 1921).

Obviously, Stanley only read the heading of this poem and did not know what an Idu-writing is. Besides, he ignores all other historical sources where taekkyon is mentioned (the oldest I know is from the period 1790-1800). I find it very pity that he comes to such a speculation and even publishes it. Yes, Korean martial arts are often subject to historical distortion, but nevertheless one has to be more careful, I think. --Hyeondo (talk) 07:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

== Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

name of article

just wondering, how did we settle on the spelling taekyon? it's not any of the proper romanization for either of the korean orthography. is this an "official" spelling? it would seem to be hardly an established english spelling that justifies variance from rr, imho. Appleby 22:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually taekkyon written with only one k is something you never see. So why the main article about taekkyon is located here is a bit of a mistery. --Kbarends 07:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

do you have any suggestions on which of the various romanizations this should be moved to? from quick google:

• 1,760 for taekgyeon
• 41,700 for taekkyon
• 969 for taekkyeon

i generally lean towards revised romanization for consistency with korean naming policy, unless there is an established english spelling, like kimchi or taekwondo, but apparently there's orthographic confusion even in hangul. Appleby 20:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Robert Young used the term 'Tae Kyon' in his, quite extensive, article about the history of taekgyeon in the journal of asian martial arts (1993 issue). It is [available here]. I don't care what kind of romanization system is used, as long as it is used consistently.

I agree. I am a current practionioner of Taekkyon in Korea and Taekkyon with two ks seems to be the official spelling. Also 택견 appears to be the official Korean spelling. Robert Young wrote an excellant article about Taekkyon, but I am not sure why he deviated from the more common spelling in Korea--Eugokin 16:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wiki about spelling I believe that the KTA uses Taekkyon as the official spelling, so I believe so should we. Even though according to modern romanization rules 'taekgyeon' would be better. I vote vor taekkyon. Kbarends 20:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The Korea Sports Association, and the ministry of culture and tourism has the official English spelling as "Taekkyon".--Bigzilla 08:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Taekyon Has Kicks?!?!?!

Ok, it says in the article that '...subak was divided into different segments, including yusul (a grappling art), kicking, and so forth, with Taekkyon being one such segment....'. But then why does Taekyon have kicks?100110100 05:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Subak consisted of kicking and grappling techniques. It is believed that around the beginning of the Joseon Dynasty the art divided in a seperate grappling part named yusul and a kicking part named taekkyeon. Kbarends 07:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Not what it says in the article........100110100 01:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is senseless Yusul means jujutsu 柔術 in korean language. The word Yusul itself is nothing related korean but its originated in japanese wasei kango(japanese vocabulary by chinese character)and yusul is started after ww2 from japan. Do not tell a lies.. 240B:C020:4E1:BE0F:F56C:D75:46A:9002 (talk) 01:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Taekyon Not MA and is a sport??

Does anyone have any references for this? From what I know, Taekyon was requirement for Chosun military although it was practiced by commoners as part of folk culture in much the same way that ssirum was. That's doesn't mean that taekyon wasn't a true martial art. Such a comment seems extremely NPOV and a violation of [[WP:#soap]].Melonbarmonster 07:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It is both. Taekkyon was played at the Dan-oh festival, and other festivals, and it was a martial method (martial art) that was also used as self defense.

It is wise to avoid the ignorance trap of seperating martial art and sport.--Bigzilla 09:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Right, taekkyon is a martial art which can be practiced in a sportly manner. You can probably also say that taekkyon is a game. Maybe somehow we can explain this in the article?? Kbarends 10:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It is all those things. --Bigzilla 11:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree; combat sports are done with a specific set of rules, between two people under the supresvision of a referee. MA on the other hand does not have limitiations on the type of techniques used weather empty handed or using weapons. Also techniques used in combat sports might not be used in the battle field. e.g. high kicks when on uneven terrain, carring your combat gear after a long march etc. Throws over the hip, as in Judo, when you have your backpack, canteen or similar equipment on your back that can interfere with the technique. Any technique that assumes your oponent in un-armed. Also if you look at the only two extant Korean sources of empty hand fighting (based on Qi Jiguang's Jinxiao Xinshu), there are no high, flying kicks and mostly hand techniques, low kicks and a sweep. Unlike Taekkyon, Taekwondo etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.10 (talk) 16:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

United

All taekkyon united in Korea. Is there a reference for that? Where can I find it? Kbarends 10:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You can contact the Korea Taekkyon Association (KTA). In February I was personally told so by KTA member Si Hyeok Lee, the son of the KTA founder. --Bigzilla 11:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there was some movement towards unification, but nowadays there are still the three main branches or styles Daehan Taekkyon, Hankuk Taekgyeon and Kyulyun Taekyun. This is from my interviews in September 2012 (which will be part of the book I am writing on Taekkyon) with Lee Yongbok (Daehan) and Do Kihyun (Kyulyun) and others. You can also see it from all the youtube videos etc. The three styles do not mix and they have almost no common activity. However, some leaders still want to unify, in the one or other way. --Hyeondo (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

If anything the three school should join with the Widae Branch schools in Seoul. Song Duk Ki was Widae style, so anyone with the blessings to use that name obviously must have inherited the system from him. One day Korea and the world will be very thankful that the living Widae Grandmasters have preserved the Taekkyeon tradition from Song Duk Ki. Truth, anyone who has an honest interest in learing Taekkyeon is always welcome to learn. There are many Koreans and people around the world interested in Taekkyeon but not enough qualified Master to teach it.Carverrock (talk) 05:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

You really think that one is legitimate just because one uses the term "widae"? This does not sound convincing to me, because anyone could use this term for his organisation. It seems that the widae grandmaster thinks that he is the only legitimate taekkyeon master. Is this true? --Hyeondo (talk) 07:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree, there are still quite a few masters who learnt directly from master Song and master Shin. I guess you do not consider master Shin legitimate, though. You obviously do not consider the heads of the three associations (Jeong Gyeonghwa, Lee Yongbok and Do Kihyun) legitimate. However, I and a lot of other people do. There are loads of books where this can be looked up. Master Jeong Gyeongwha even has the title as a national treasure inherited from masters Song and Shin.

Which books do you mean (title, author) and what is the name of this "other man in Korea who learnt the complete system"? I know three books that were compiled with master Song and with photos of him, but I am not sure if we talk about the same books. --Hyeondo (talk) 07:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

First: Ko Yongwoo's skill level is one thing, but the stories he tells is another. Ko Yong-woo is completely unknown at the Taekkyon department of the Yongin University (the only university where taekkyon can be studied). If he had such a good reputation, a man like Professor Jang Kyeong-tae (Taekkyon Professor) should know him. Professor Jang wrote a book in 2011 that compares all the Taekkyon styles - but he did not include Ko Yongwoo's style (World Widae Taekkyon Organization) in this comparison.

Second: Upd to my knowledge, there are not many Taekkyon players who have moved to America and trained with Ko Yong-woo. I am in touch with all three associations in Korea and I know exactly one player who trained with Ko Yong-woo. Yes, this one player is a master with a top rank.

Third: Would you please kindly answer my question: What is the name of this "other man in Korea who learnt the complete system"?

Fourth: Thank you, too and good luck to you! Although we have different opinions, I absolutely respect you, your opinions and wish you all the best. --Hyeondo (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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To Hyeondo, I want to point out few things of your comment, first of all your mention of Jang Kyeong-tae

and his knowledge of taekkyun is irrelevant b/c Jang Kyeong-tae himself doesn't have too much knowledge of taekkyun in general.

Also you mention of Yong-In University as some important institution teaching taekkyun, which is also irrelevant b/c Yong-In University itself doesn't isn't the source of taekkyun.

Whoever Song Duk Ki taught would be the taekkyun sources.

This is wikipedia page of Shin Hwan Seung and shows you some events of what Widae GM Song has said while teaching Shin taekkyun and seeing their progress.

https://mirror.enha.kr/wiki/%EC%8B%A0%ED%95%9C%EC%8A%B9

Just read the information below and you judge for yourself. They even did this while GM Song was watching.

   꽤 유명한 일화로는 부산에서 열린 1회 태껸대회가 끝난 후 태껸의 경기에 불만을 가진 송덕기 옹에게 태껸스럽게 하려면 활개짓을 더 잘해야 된다고 했다가 송덕기 옹이
   "태껸은 품만 잘 밟으면 돼!! 왜 없는 동작을 자꾸 만들려고 해!!!"

translated below

   Quite a famous story about how Song Duk Ki was not satisfied after watching the very 1st taekkyeon tournament that was held in Busan,
   Song Duk Ki stated you have to know how to do Hwar Get Jit better then that, then he added,
   "In Taekkyeon, you have to know how to step using Poom Bal Ki well!! Why do you keep making up movements that doesn't exist in Taekkyun!!!"

VS

Book CoverBook Comments

This was comment left by GM Song himself.

The comments of the red book regarding Ko Yong Woo, the top middle left person, it say:

Song Duk Ki's taekkyun student. Song Duk Ki has limitlessly appraised and complimented on his taekkyun ability.

GM Song criticized Shin Hwan Seung that he wasn't doing taekkyun right (even told him he was making up moves),

BUT GM Song applauded Master Ko Yong Woo that Ko Yong Woo does taekkyun well.

Taekkyunbunny (talk) 19:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

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Yes, Taekkyeon is a military martial art, it always was, Later,it became a game. The teachers of the three big Korean Taekkyeon associations are legitimate martial arts teachers, they know many basic techniques of Taekkyeon. The basics are everything. Advanced techniques are only combinations of basic techniques. Carverrock

American Taekkyon

Are there any official Taekkyon schools in America? Quietmartialartist 16:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at http://taekkyon.de/html/en/circle.html#usa or http://taekkyon.de/html/en/circle.html. They listed all countries which have taekkyon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.143.197.114 (talk) 13:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, American now has a National Taekkyon Organization, Taekkyon USA

http://www.taekkyonkorea.com/event/engtk/02.php

The World Widae Taekkyeon Organization is based in Los Angeles CA since 1984. Classes are available for all.

If one thinks that the Widae Organisation is the only authorized association in the world, then yes. However, only few people (probably only the members of this organisation, as far as I know less than 50) will agree, I guess. The other federations have several thousand members. Of course, it is not only size that matters, but claiming that there is only one authorized school in America is definately not true. --Hyeondo (talk) 07:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC

Anyone can teach a martial art and call it whatever they want. However, no-one uses the Widea name in S. Korea unless they are directly linked to GM Songs Taekkyeon lineage. That's the truth. Also, no-one in S. Korea disputes the Widae Schools validity.

I disagree, but I think it is useless to discuss this any further. I accept your personal point of view, but please provide verifiable evidence when editing articles. Kind regards, --Hyeondo (talk)

Update on Widae Taekkyeon in LA, CA. This school was ran by Master Ko Yong Woo. He no longer has a school and only does private lessons. Widae title can be used by him and another man in Korea as stated in above dialogs. The reason being is they learned the art completely from GM Song Duk Ki.Taekkyunbunny (talk) 09:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

dongyi.org/ Eastern martial arts Taekkyon

This "Dongyi Taekkyon" was made by Pak Sung Ho. He claims that he learned this system by some old mountain hermit / master, but there is not the slightest proof that this man existed. The sport which is taught by Pak Sung-ho is a mixture of Capoeira, Acrobatics and a some few Taekkyon techniques. However, all Taekkyon styles have a certain "basic step", called Pum Balb Gi. The step which they teach at Dongyi is very different from the actual form and is never used while fighting (because it is just not possible to use it (the feet are not lifted frequently enough in order to move flexibly). I am sorry for the Dongyi people, but we should not support such kind of swindle. They can do such a sport, there is nothing wrong about it, but they should not claim that it is Taekkyon or a traditional thing. A few decades ago, there were absolutely no such saltos or Capoeira moves in Korea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.143.197.114 (talk) 13:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Origin not Ssireum

Taekkyon and Ssireum share some techniques, that's true. Even the names for the throws are the same (like "An Nagg Geol I" or "Deot Geoli" or ""Nakshi Geoli"). However, I do not know any source that proves that Ssireum is the origin of Taekkyon. It is more probable that both sports developed independently. There is not even any sign for a relationship of the two martial arts. If nobody disagrees, I will edit the article in a few days. --S.pioneer (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I edited it. I also edited some other things, e.g. there is no citation needed for the fact that taekkyon teaches a lot of leg techniques. It's just too obvious. I practiced taekkyon in Korea, it's just obvious. --S.pioneer (talk) 18:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Taekkyon has many grabbing and throwing techniques. It may be possible ssireum was for the big Taekkyon guys to push, pull, trip each other around with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.154.65.152 (talk) 03:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Focus = striking?

Taekkyon contains a lot of throws which are similar to those trained in Judo. Shouldn't we edit the focus? It's striking at the moment, but "mixed" might be better. --S.pioneer (talk) 13:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC) This is dum.

What is the hanja for this word?

tell me 70.89.165.91 (talk) 22:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any. If I had to guess I'd say 跆跟.97.118.207.2 (talk) 21:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Shaolin Kung Fu involves constant movement?

No, it doesn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.191.204 (talk) 14:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC) Have to agree with you on that, the only shaolin form that has constant movement is the monkey fist which does not have any high kicks and all four limbs are often below hip level.Gammadion (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC).

What is this have anything to do with the article? Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Historical Section Requires Editing

"Htaik-kyen-ha-ki is a combat between two players, chiefly with the feet. They take their positions with their feet apart, facing each other, and each endeavors to kick the other's foot from under him. A player may take one step backward with either foot to a third place. His feet, therefore, always stand in one of three positions. One leads with a kick at one of his opponent's legs. He moves that leg back and kicks in turn. A high kick is permitted, and is caught with the hands. The object is to throw the opponent.

This game also occurs in Japan, but the Chinese laborers from Canton do not appear to be familiar with it."

Where in the above paragraph is stated that Htaik-kyen-ha-ki is a martial art? It is presented as a game, big difference! Stewart Culin's book Korean games with notes on the corresponding games of China and Japan (1895) is about games not martial arts. The article requires more references without twisting the information to sale the idea that taekkyon is something it wasn't. Also "Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early..." One of the paintings mentioned in this paragraph do depict wrestling, but from the second one one cannot say if this is striking, wrestling or dancing (the same argument is used in Tae Kwon Do circles). We cannot conclude what is stated in the article. Also according with historian Stanley E. Henning, the area where these tombs are located, were under Chinese control from (108 BC - 313AD) and earlier Chinese sources already diferentiated between wrestling and striking. The Han established four commanderies in the area. see Henning, Stanley. Traditional Korean Martial Arts, JAMA V.9, N.1, 2000

Eventhough Robert Young, concludes that "tae kyon is the only plausible candidate of ancient subak...It is the only Korean fighting system that cannot be easily connected to modern Japanese and Chinese martial arts...". Young does admit at the begining of his article that: "subak the only fighting art mentioned in Korea's oldest records, was an ancient, comprehensive system with roots in northern China. Evidence supporting the contention that subak originated outside Korea is provided by Chinese records that list shou bo (Chinese pronunciation of subak) as an ancient martial art in the northern part of the country". In essence, taekkyon was based in part on ancient Chinese martial arts. Professor Meir Shahar points out to entries in the History of the Former Han (209 BC - 24AD) by Ban Gu, refering to the book Shou Bo see Shahar, Meir, The Shaolin Monastery, History Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts, Hawaii University Press. According to Chinese historian Ma Mingda, Shou Bo was a term used to describe boxing see Ma Mingda 说剑丛稿 /Shuo jian cong gao, Beijing Shi : Zhonghua shu ju, 2007. The above examples precede the Korean sources

Last but not least in the Muyedobotongji (1790), written in classical Chinese; there is no mention of Taekkyon as a martial art, instead they use the term kwonbop (quan fa in Chinese). The section on boxing is based on Ming general Qi Jiguan's Jinxiao Xinshu as there are many other sections from the same manual along with Japanese martial arts. In the translation of this book by H. Kim, The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts of Ancient Korea, it is said in the King's foreword: "…Archery has been the only official martial art and other forms of military arts were unheard of…". This confirms that at the time, taekkyon was practised as a past time/game but not a martial art. The historical section must be edited. --Tianshanwarrior 21:40, 23 March 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.72.39.126 (talk)

Again, there are NO han murals or tombs that depict such martial arts. Shoubo was only written in ancient Chinese chronicles, so there's no way to claim bunch of murals when there are no references for these murals. Shoubo is said to date back to yellow emperor, a legendary chinese historical figure. I address all other claims in your other sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartialArt12 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

If we are going to talk about "claims" then we certainly need to change the "historical section" of this article. When you say there are no examples in China that depict wrestling and martial practises you are wrong. There are ornaments and ancient documents that do show/describe just that (see Kang Gewu's The Spring and Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts). You acknowledged that the area where the tombs are were under Chinese control, so there is the possibility of Chinese influence as you admited before "...and only have Chinese Han influences". Besides the specific mural you use as argument , is too general to conclude it depicts any strking style; (http://mastaekwondo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/2009-03-26_Ax_masTaekwondo_Historia_TKD_Koguryo_Mural_500.jpg) this mural could depict striking, dancing, wrestling or just playing.

“Taekkyeon is a traditional Korean martial art with a dance-like appearance in some aspects. Goguryeo mural painting at the Samsil tomb shows Taekkyeon was practiced as early as the Three Kingdoms Era and transmitted from Goguryeo to Shilla.[1][2] The earliest existing written source mentioning Taekkyeon is the book Manmulmo (also Jaemulmo), written around 1790 by Lee, Sung-Ji.[3] Taekkyeon is also frequently romanized informally as Taekkyon or Taekyon.”

The Chinese sources precede any written Korean source by hundreds of years and the characters used in the Korean sources are identical to the Chinese. Also you failed to mention that the Muyedobotongji has no mention of Taekkyon as a martial art; Qi Jiguang considered empty hand skills as a basic part of training and weapons are more important, an aproach that was also applied in the MYDTJ (the MYDTJ chapter on empty hand fighting came from Qi's manual). If this article is to be balanced and adhering to the available information, then it has to include the fact that Chinese martial arts influenced Korean practises and not present them as if they were purely Korean.

According to professor Ma Mingda the term Bo can be found as far as the Qin dynasty (no mention of the Yellow emperor) and wrestling (supposedly created by Chi You) was a military sport differentiated from Bo. Moreover, Robert Young does admit at the beginning of his article that: "subak the only fighting art mentioned in Korea's oldest records, was an ancient, comprehensive system with roots in northern China. Evidence supporting the contention that subak originated outside Korea is provided by Chinese records that list shou bo (Chinese pronunciation of subak) as an ancient martial art in the northern part of the country". This article “conveniently” skip this paragraph.

“Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in reliable, published sources are covered”

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth: whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.

All material added to articles must be attributable to a source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and one appropriate for the information in question. In practice you do not need to attribute everything; only quotations and material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed, through an inline citation that directly supports the material.[1] For how to write citations, see Citing sources.

This policy applies to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, sections of articles, and captions—without exception, and in particular to material about living persons. Anything that requires but lacks a source may be removed, and unsourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately."

This is Wikipedia and you cannot use your biases to drive any article here unless you can demonstrate what you say with VERIFIABLE and SCHOLARLY sources, preferably in English (websites like the ones used in the reference page do not comply with Wikipedia's directives). As a side note regarding Henning, if studying ancient documents for 30 years, a degree in History along with a Master degree, advisor for PhD candidates and lecturer to Chinese and western universities is “just” an amateur then I don’t know what your definition of a scholar is, please do tell. Henning does not claim that the tombs are Chinese, but that they were in area under Chinese control (Henning based his article on Korean sources,written in Chinese as they were in antiquity) if you consider Henning's sources not valid, then you cannot used any Korean source to support your arguments as they would be, by your own admision, unreliable. Last but not least, one cannot look only at Korean sources without studying in parallel Chinese ones, given the fact the the latter precede the former and Korean culture has been heavily influenced by China.Tianshanwarrior 21:40, April 16 2011 (UTC)

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Another issue I see here: "the capital city of the Chosun Dynasty. At the height of its popularity, even the king practiced Taekkyon,[4]" The reference reads: "4. 동사강목(Dongsa-gangmok, 18th century), "왕이 직접 수박희를 하였다, The king himself made a Subak tournament "

Here it clearly talks about Subak (수박), Shoubo in Chinese (手搏,fight/combat skills/someone who is skilled); and not Taekkyon. Again Bo is found in chronicles written as early as the Qin Dynasty,Shou Bo appeared in the Han Dynasty. We cannot prove if the Shoubo in the Chinese sources is the same as the one described in the Korean sources, but the possibility that Chinese martial arts influenced the Koreans, at least in their theoretical bases is there. Tianshanwarrior 21:40, July 21 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.57.212.12 (talk)

Subak is Taekkyeon

Both articles talk about this relationship. Since they are the same art should they not be merged into one article with a Redirect?Peter Rehse (talk) 13:45, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Koreans translated some parts of books about Subak and Taekkyon to me. It is not so easy to distinguish between both arts, but it is absolutely not clear if Subak was the same as Taekkyon. The most important source is probably the Jaemulbo. The text has:

„Byeon und Subak are Byeon, Gangnyeok is Mu and all these are called Takgyeon [sic!] in Hangeul. (手搏爲卞 角力爲武 苦今之탁견)“. This is the translation of Lee Yongbok in „Taekkyon, a Korean Martial Art” (한국무예 택견). Seoul: Hakminsa Publishing 1990.

A Chinese and a Korean friend of mine confirmed this translation independently.

The "problem" is that this text is an "extension" of the much older Chinese Hàn Shū. There, we have:

手搏為卞, 角力為武戲也.

You can look up the complete Hàn Shū text here: http://www.guoxue123.com/shibu/0101/01hsyz/011.htm

So, the Chinese wrote about Subak (手搏, which they called Shoubo) already in 111.

The unique text in the Jaemulbo, "若今之 탁견" means "similar to today's takkyon." Two things seem to be going on here. First, this is the kind of scholarly reference that the literati of Joseon delighted in. Second, there is confirmation of takkyon / taekkyon as a competitive folk practice (as subak / shoubo was). Whether the writer is drawing a literal connection between takkyon and shoubo is unclear, though I'd guess probably not. It seems more likely that purpose of the quotation is to identify takkyon as a particular kind of thing by comparing it to a historical or cultural precedent. I also think this confuses the issue of subak in Korean history. Are references to subak in Korean sources referring to something thought of (at the time) as Korean or Chinese? Did those categories exist then with any precision? Maybe "subak" referred to a general category, like boxing or wrestling.

This is the first Taekkyon book which was ever published:

Song Dokki (송덕기) and Bak Jong-gwan (박종관): „The traditioal martial art Taekkyon” (전통무예 택견). Seoul: Seorim Munhwasa Publishing 1983. 173 Seiten. ISBN 89-7186-209-2. ISBN 89-7186-001-4 (Set).

This book has a chapter called "the traces of Subak". Song Dokki, who learnt Taekkyon from 1905, and his co-author write that it is unclear what Subak exactly was. However, people still remembered the term. For example, there is a mountain called subak-san in the mid-west of South Korea. Song writes that little is known about this mountain. By the way, the authors also write that the ancient mural pictures (Samsil tomb, Muyeongcheong etc.) show generic postures and cannot be linked to a contemporary martial art. I think this is obvious if you look at these pictures. This is why I deleted (without being logged in) the passage about it today.

Lee Yongbok and others also write a lot about what Subak probably or maybe was. Also, the Korean martial art (or martial game? Nobody knows exactly) "Subyeok" is probably related to Subak. Lee writes that obviously Subyeok (which is a more Korean pronounciation of Bak) seems to be lost since the Korean War.

More study (and translation) is necessary. We should simply delete all Subak-related information from this article and write them in the Subak article. What we should do here, of course, is to quote the Jaemulbo.

By the way, the fact that 手搏 is Shoubo in Chinese and Subak in Korean does not automatically mean that both arts are related or that one was the predecessor of the other. They are just "words" so far. I know a little bit about what Shoubo might have been (a kind of wrestling game), but I do not have enough knowledge to draw a relation or distinction of both arts. Regards from Germany, --Hyeondo (talk) 19:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, in the German Wikipedia, both the article about Taekkyon and about Subak are a bit more detailed. I would like to transfer more information from the German one over here, for example the old photograph which shows children playing Taekkyon. I hope I will have the time for this soon. The German article is here: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/wiki/Taekgyeon Regards, --Hyeondo (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

"Subak is Taekkyeon, its the same". -Grandmaster Ko Yong Woo (Headmaster of Widae Taekkyeon) Carverrock (talk) 05:55, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

unsigned comment added by Carverrock (talk • contribs) 05:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC) 

Disagree. Keep it separate. Taekkyeon is part of Subak which was part of Choseon military arts but they are distinct per wiki categorical purposes. This also bears itself out historically considering that even when formalized subak had fallen out of use, taekkyeon tournaments were popular into early 20th century before Japanese ban.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we should keep it spearate, but I disagree that taekkyeon is definately part of subak. It is possible, but not proven. So far, no evidence for this was given in this discussion or elsewhere. There is only speculation. As far as I know from Korean sources, it is more likely that the two martial arts were different. According to these sources, subak was "mixed martial art" and taekkyon was what is described in taekkyeon. However, subak may have been used as a written synonym for taekkyon - this is still unclear to me. --Hyeondo (talk) 07:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

No military art

I just deleted "military" in the first sentence of the article. "Military martial art" suggests that mainly soldiers practiced it or that it was used for warfare. This was not the case, even if some soldiers occasionally did taekkyon. It was'nt established as a standard education for war purposes. In contrast, taekkyon was done by "hallyang" (people without any "real" job) and during festivals, just like ssireum. It was clearly a civil martial art. Actually, a martial art cannot be more civil than taekkyon. Song Dokki, who passed down taekkyon, was a hallyang himself. He worked as a "security guard" occasionally, e.g. at the movie theatre at Insadong. His teacher, Im Ho, was no soldier either (but a hallyang as well). The word "military" had been inserted into this article several times by one user. I told this user each time that he has to provide evidence for such claims. Would be happy if some more users could watch this article and check if there are any more such edits. Thanks! Regards, --Vagabund (talk) 20:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Taekyun Yetbub is a very important part in Taekyun, but its content is entirely missing

1. Taekyun Yetbub (Subak & Baekta) Official Stance by Taekyun

Before introducing Yetbub, there is another word Kyulyun-Taekyun that has to be addressed. Both Yetbub & Kyulyun-Taekyun are the concepts & words provided by Dukgi Song (the father of modern Taekyun) himself with interviews, textbooks, videos historically recorded. Dukgi Song explained Yetbub as the set of techniques of hitting with any body part (street fighting techniques), powerfully & with full swings. Yetbub was differentiated from regular Taekyun sparring which does not hit with any body part & does not hit for real. For example, punching is done powerfully & with full swings in Yetbub, but it is prohibited in regular Taekyun sparring. Also, Yetbub kicks for real, but regular Taekyun sparring kicks lightly, just enough to knock over, for the safety of the opponent. Kyulyun-Taekyun is another term that was differentiated from regular Taekyun sparring.

Dukgi Song explained Kyulyun-Taekyun as a form of team battle where 2 different wards competed Taekyun against each other. Even in Korean dictionary Chosunosajun from 1938, Kyulyun-Taekyun is recorded as "Kap-group & El-group compete against each other with Taekyun". Other than being a group game, Dukgi Song also mentioned that this was popular for gang members & that people kicked for real in it as opposed to regular Taekyun sparring that only knocked over the enemy in light contact concerned for the safety of the opponent. So, there are 3 different words here: regular Taekyun sparring, Kyulyun-Taekyun, Yetbub. Kyulyun-Taekyun hit for real; Yetbub hit hit for real which was powerful to break jaws. Regular Taekyun sparring is a light contact sparring prohibiting many techniques such as punching.

Taekyun has a set of street fighting techniques including punching; this is called Yetbub. There is a variety of techniques such as punching, palm strikes to nose or chest, etc. There are people who claim that Taekyun Yetbub was created in the modern era, but such claim is not founded on a clear ground. They are not referencing to some old record that Taekyun didn’t have Yetbub. Some people also think of Taekwondo while thinking Taekyun. However, even Taekwondo learns punching & such; they just don’t use such in sparring. Unlike such claims, Taekyun’s official stance has always acknowledged Yetbub as a formal part of Taekyun ever since Dukgi Song’s era; there has been textbooks, photos, videos made.

Subak-bojonhoi perceives Taekyun's Yetbub to be the same as Subak & Baekta with the moves looking almost identical.

Taekyun Yetbub's (or Korean Subak, Kyuksul, etc) techniques match, especially for hand strikes, with traditional Korean street fighting pictures & photos particularly with natural horizontal fist & raising the forearm sideways. They also match with Muyedobotongji Kwonbub's pictures like leaning with legs & contorting the shoulder forward. Although Muyedobotongji Kwonbub has both horizontal fist (Joongsapyunse & Ilsapbose) & vertical fist for punching, Taekyun Yetbub uses just horizontal fist for punching while also looking less formalized & more traditional street fighting.

For example, for hand strikes, they contort shoulder & lean with legs just like historically recorded in Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbub's pictures hundreds years ago. Even other Korean fighting games like Gitxaum (Flag Fighting) also shows such traits. This Xilem (Korean wrestling) type of shoulder emphasis (called Julgujil in Subak-bojonhoi which emphasize shoulder, back, knee) shows in many different Korean sports. Korean strikes today use those same techniques today as before including hand strikes.

Korean strike's traits are pushing own body with legs, contorting shoulder, accelerating with Yong, striking through with a heavy powerful strike. As visible from Muyedobotongji Kwonbub, Leg leverage, contorted shoulder, striking through (the opposite of harmless strike bounced back), Yong acceleration are Korean strike's traits.

Aside from striking through, Korean Subak was power oriented such that Chosun Royal Journal from 1419 June 20th record says "they selected strongmen to play Subak. A monk named Haeyun was very strong; he defeated many. The king ordered the monk to grow hair & become a civilian."

2. Related Historical Records on Taekyun Yetbub (Subak & Baekta)

Taekyun’s official stance has always acknowledged Taekyun as a set of 2 different sports teaching a sparring that wrestles, throws, kicks & also teaching street fighting even since Dukgi Song’s era. As for the historical records before the era of Dukgi Song, the medieval Jaemulbo recorded “Subak is Byun; Kakryuk is Muhi; this is called Takyun today”. Byun means hurrying; Muhi means fighting game.

Kakryuk (Jiao Li) is a generic common noun meaning wrestling. The medieval Jaemulbo called wrestling a type of wrestling. In 1920 June 21st Dongailbo newspaper article, there is a mention of Water Taekyun (Multaekyun). It mentions “throwing a sister in law with Multaekyun”. Throwing means that they perceived Water Taekyun as a wrestling.

Even when looking at Stewart Culin’s book "Games of the Orient", Taekyun is recorded as "a high kick is permitted, and is caught with the hands. The object is to throw the opponent." Taekyun was recorded as a wrestling allowing kicking.

Now, Jaemulbo’s Taekyun reference has to be translated. Many people are unable to translate the sentence. They understand the meaning as if Taekyun & Subak are separate sports which Taekyun descended from Subak. However, Taekyun’s official stance has not been so; they have always taught Yetbub. Jaemulbo’s Subak reference is recorded a little longer in Kwanamjunseo & Hanseo. Like Taekyun’s official stance, Kakryuk & Subak are separate sports but grouped together with the techniques related. "卞射武戱。漢書哀帝紀贊曰時覽卞射武戱。注云手搏爲卞。角力爲戱。分隊竝進。" It says Byun (hurrying) reflects Muhi (fighting game). Subak reflects Kakryuk (wrestling) which is Taekyun (Kakryuk).

Now, see 1930’s perception on Taekyun. In 1930’s April 3rd Dongailbo article, the following is recorded for Taekyun. “Yusul’s start seems to be from the medieval Koryeo. Such entertainments have been popular along with music even since the 15th king Sookjong. During king Choonghye’s era, Yudo flourished hugely; this was called Subak & Kwonbub.” The following is also mentioned. “Even recently, young men play a fighting game a little different from Xilem called Taekyun. This Yudo devolved recently, but it evolved a lot during Koryeo era such that it was done between soldiers in May 5th. In Muyetongji edited in king Jungjong’s era, its techniques were listed; there are 25 techniques & 10 additional techniques. It is hard to describe, but the 25 techniques mainly consist of body movement, hand strikes, kicks.”

Muyetongji refers to Muyedobotongji which recorded Kwonbub including punches. Yusul & Yudo mean wrestling. They called this Subak & Kwonbub. Also, they specifically recorded that body movement, hand strikes, kicks are the main parts. Unlike Subak & Kwonbub, Taekyun sparring forbids punching although they are recorded to learn such. Like today's official stance in Taekyun, Taekyun spars in wrestling with kicks allowed but they learn Subak & Kwonbub separately in techniques.

It is a common sense, and we already saw that Kwonbub consists mainly of body movement, hand strikes, kicks. However, Subak is not well known. Let’s see the past records on Subak. In Ming Dynasty’s Yongdamsopoom, “Baekta is competing with Subak. Tang’s Jangjong gambled with Subak; Kyunga Jang achieved glory with Subak. Civilians call it Takwon; according to Soju people, people’s bones can be broken to death. Killing fast or slow depends on the techniques.” Also, Chosun Royal Journal Sunjo Era 31th year April entry recorded Kyuk Yu showing the techniques of Takwon with palm-oriented training slamming his own face, neck, back, chest, stomach, etc.

Now, see the relationship between Takwon & Kwonbub. In Chosun Royal Journal 1599 April 4th, they called Kihyosinseo’s Kung Fu Kwonbub (hits with any body part including kicks, punches, etc) as Takwon.

Takwon & Kwonbub refer to the same thing & are generic common nouns (their proper nouns are Nalparam, Jikundo, etc); they hit with any body part while the training is originally palm-oriented often slamming its own body. Also, since there is more than 1 style in Kung Fu, Takwon & Kwonbub have many different styles. In 1930 April 3rd Dongailbo newspaper article, they didn’t say that Taekyun came from Subak; they called Taekyun as Subak & Kwonbub. Since Taekyun’s sparring style itself differs from Kwonbub, this matches with Taekyun’s official stance how Taekyun learns both its sparring style & street fighting separately. Today’s Taekyun officially does not call Yetbub as Subak or Kwonbub; they just refer to it as street fighting & Yetbub. However, 1930’s newspaper article & the perception in that era used the terms Subak & Kwonbub; the contents match with today.

Subak reflects Taekyun, and Taekyun includes Subak & Kwonbub. However, that doesn’t mean Kwonbub is necessarily passed down together with Kakryuk (Jiao Li). Even in China, they learn Kung Fu separately instead of being packaged with wrestling. Even in Korea’s case, it is possible to pass down Subak & Kwonbub separately without Taekyun. Even in Chosunsanggosa (1924), North Korea’s Songdo Subak was mentioned separately from Taekyun. This is today taught by South Korea’s Subak-bojonhoi. A typical example of this kind of structure is North Korean Nalparam known as a type of Pyunxaum (Side Faction Fight).

A claim that Korean Subak changed rules in the modern era is not founded on a clear ground. Coaching & techniques can change, but it is no longer the same sport if the rules change. Subak & Kwonbub had the same rules even in the modern era; Taekyun was recorded as Subak & Kwonbub in that modern era. As for the proofs that Subak & Kwonbub had the same rules even in the modern era, Mas Oyama (Baedal Choi) mentioned Chosun (Korean) Kwonbub using headbutt & etc. Namsun Choi also published newspaper articles in 1937 which were made into the book “Korean Common Sense” in 1948. It describes the modern era’s Subak as Kwonak’s Jintoi (fist & grabbing advancing & retrieving).

Aside from Taekyun Yetbub, Songdo Subak, Nalparam, a similar traditional Korean fighting style exists in North Korea called Kyuksul. Kyuksul’s earlier stage sparred only with hands like Subak’s palm oriented training. Also, like Taekyun Yetbub, Kyuksul trains Yusul separately. Yusul is a term not really used in Korea today, but it was used even in 1930’s for Taekyun.

Aside from Subak & Kwonbub passing down independently or passing down within Taekyun, as for this fighting style being competed, there has been many historical records. In Koryeo & Chosun eras, Subak has been competed, not just Kakryuk (Jiao Li). In 1964, the book "Chosun's Cultural Games" was published by Kimu Hong in North Korea at North Korean Cultural Research Institute. In the book, Subak, Taekyun, Nalparam were listed; Nalparam was recorded as a game that mainly uses fists but also uses headbutt, kick, etc.

This fighting style that existed as a sport is corroborated by all South Korean Taekyun groups (Yetbub), South Korea's Subak-bojonhoi, North Korean Cultural Research Institute (Nalparam), Mas Oyama's record of Chosun Kwonbub. Even in 19th century, this fighting style's competition was recorded; Henry Savage Landor's book "Corea" recorded prize-fight. This wasn't a record of a plain street fighting but a formal sport competition. "The combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest." As for techniques, this fighting style was used. "They often-times disport themselves in witnessing prize-fights among the champions of different towns, or of different wards in the same town". Also, many different towns participated; even 1 single town had many different wards; each had their own champion participated. It was a formal competition sport with a tournament system.

Wikibreaking (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Yetbub, there are claims against its existence, so the best way is to just write in the form "this is the official stance, here are the related references & proofs centuries ago". If writing in a smoother way, it doesn't look as legitimate because of such claims. The *official stance* part (as in what Taekyun has been saying officially) & the *historical proofs* part have to be emphasized in the minimalistic way. I can't really think of any part to edit out. (All the contents are minimalistic.) Adding sentences will loosen up the emphasis against such claims.

Also, some people might connect Subak's palm oriented training with European boxing (such that Subak's Takwon/Kwonbub matches with boxing's pankration) especially because Northern Korean has Roman nose of Southern Europe & the Middle East, but there are too much claims against Taekyun Yetbub; it has to be very minimalistic by listing only what the official stance has been & what the related references from centuries ago (proofs) are.

Wikibreaking (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

References

Taekyun Yetbub is genuine; medieval Jaemulbo recorded Sibak to be "also Taekyun"; Murayama Jijun 100 years ago recorded Baksi

Taekwondo is a mix of Chosun-Gwonbub (started 300 years ago by Korean Muyedobotongji textbook) gym & Karate gyms. However, Korea has had many other Fight Games, particularly street fighting games called Nalparam, Taekyun-Yetbub, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum (side-fight), Sibak (side-fight). In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun. Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi, which were quite different from Taekyun. (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)

Korea had many street fighting games like this Gitssaum picture & written fist fighting description. I don't think there was any ban on Korean martial art by Japan. They probably just banned "unlawful" gathering. https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

Here's also something about street fighting contest in Korea 100 years ago. Prizefighting. https://i.imgur.com/i03RApC.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 21:06, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Difference between Competition Taekkyeon, & Martial Taekkyeon-(Yetbeop)

Taekkyeon is a wrestling with kicking in soft-contact. Even 1920's reputable newspaper recorded water-Taekkyeon is done by throwing the opponent (throwing sister in law). Stewart Culin also recorded "Htaik-Kyen-Ha-Ki" to be a throwing game 100 years ago. "A high kick is permitted, and is caught with the hands. The object is to throw the opponent." Even today, Taekkyeon game is done by throwing opponent as well as kicking. Taekkyeon-Yetbub is a full contact street fighting game which hits with any body part including punching. Taekwondo is a mix of Chosun(Korean)-Gwonbeop (started 300 years ago by Korean Muyedobotongji textbook) gym & Karate gyms. However, Korea has had many other Fight Games, particularly street fighting games called Nalparam, Taekyun-Yetbub, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum ("team-fight", "side-fight"), Sibak ("opponent-hitting").

Regular Taekkyeon is a wrestling game with kicks allowed. 1920's Korean newspaper Dongailbo recorded Water Taekkyeon to throw a sister in law. Stewart Culin also recorded in the book "Korean Games with Notes on the Corresponding Games of China and Japan" that Taekkyeon has throwing in it. However, Taekkyeon has another Taekkyeon in Taekkyeon. In medieval Korean encyclopedia Jaemulbo, a new martial art called Sibak shows up; it was recorded to be "also Taekkyeon". Murayama Jijun recorded 100 years ago about Nanjangbaksi in Baksi. (Korean sometimes reverse the word order like Baksi & Sibak). He recorded Nanjangbaksi to be a team street fighting game like Korean Prize Fight historically recorded, not a wrestling game nor a kicking game.

Taekkyeon has both Taekkyeon & Sibak in it; there are 2 sets of games in Taekkyeon; Sibak (Baksi, Nanjangbaksi street fighting) is Yetbub. Sibak, including Nanjangbaksi recorded by Murayama Jijun, is also Taekkyeon other than the regular Taekkyeon. There are also other old names & games other than Sibak, like Gitssaum (Flag Fight, this is a fist fighting game that also represents general Pyunssaum, Sibak, Taekkyeon-Yetbub), Nalparam, etc; they are all a form of Sibak ("opponent-hitting") & Pyunssaum ("team fight", "side fight") enjoyed by Taekkyeon population historically for gaming street fight. Other than 1927's reputable newspaper's Gitssaum (Flag Fight) fist-fighting pictures, an old (drawn 100 years ago) Poongsokhwa drawing of Pyunssaum by (most likely) Gisan Joongeun Kim also helps identifying Taekyun Yetbub's moves. In this old drawing, 2 teams are made, 1 team with red shirts and 1 team with black shirts. There are 2 games going on simultaneously. 1 game is Korean wrestling Ssireum; the other game is Pyunssaum punching & kicking, giving a visual understanding of Taekkyeon-Yetbub just like 1927's Gitssaum pictures. Yetbub is pyunssaum, Sibak which is also in Taekkyeon. Like the 1895's Prize Fight record, "the combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest."

Yetbub is basically wrestlers street fighting in rules & postures including holding arm & punching at the same time like 1927's Gitssaum (Flag Fight) pictures (except that strikes are more powerful than a plain street fighting by shoulder-rotation, body momentum, Yongryuk stacking speed & power). In 1927's Flag Fighting & 300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbeop, shoulder-rotation (turning, pushing the striking side's shoulder forward) is observed for punching front for extra mass, strength, speed. Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square. As for the texture of Korean strikes, Korean uses Yong which means stacking speed & power in the entire body including arms. Even Korean Ikmyung Yang's 1692's record of breaking a stone with hand strike used Yongryuk. Horizontal fist is also observed for punching in 1927's Flag Fight, 100 years old Korean street fighting, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub/Kwonbeop. Taekkyeon Yetbub hits with such traits even today including in powerful punching (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, mass, power for horizontal-fist no-spin punching). Taekkyeon Yetbub's hand techniques have swings hitting front (& also hitting side such as jaw-breaking slap) as well as straight strikes including punching & frontal slap even today.

A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). "누상동에는 '장칼'이라는 장사가 있어 키도 크고 힘도 좋고 '복장지르기', '가슴치기'등 택견솜씨가 좋았다." Translation: "Nusangdong had a strongman named Jangkal. He was tall & strong; he was good at Taekyun techniques particularly Bokjangjireugi (Front Stomp Kick), Gaseumchigi (Frontal Chest Slap, slapping chest at front), etc." Dukgi Song testified directly about frontal slap in Taekkyeon. "이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용". Translation: "the content recorded by Bohyung Lee from direct interview with Dukgi Song."

The same interview & the same book (by Munyejinheungwon & Bohyung Lee, 1984, Munyejinheung Volume 11 Number 1 page 67) includes Dukgi Song's direct testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as his testimony how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap. There are also online Taekkyeon articles on Taekkyeon Yetbub by the official Taekkyeon organizations.

As a side note, slapping cheek is often thought as hitting side, but cheek or jaw is actually halfway frontal in about 45 degrees, not 90 degrees at side like ears. Also, hook and swing are two different motions; hook isn't really used for slapping cheek. Furthermore, sports create techniques & motions; they evolve & add motions not from everyday-life (explicit proofs have to check such). Also, whether hitting 45 degrees, 0 degrees or 90 degrees from the front, shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed, power, mass doesn't change for hand strike; the strike techniques are the same. Taekyun & Subak techniques are consistent in authenticity. Subak had swing slaps hitting front (frontal slap), straight slaps, punches already at the ancient time; Taekkyeon also had all those in the medieval times already. Straight slaps are also common in everyday-life anyway such as swatting, spanking. There are authoritative explicit proofs for Taekkyeon, Taekkyeon-Yetbub, Subak moves from the older eras by reputable sources.

References

Taekkyeon-Yetbub always had powerful hand strikes

Yetbub is a traditional street fighting game (Sibak, Baksi, Nanjangbaksi) recorded by Murayama Jijun. In Korean street fight scenes & street fighting game (like Flag Fighting, Gitssaum), horizontal fist is observed. In Korean Flag Fighting (Gitssaum) & Muyedobotongji Gwonbub pictures (300 years old), pushing shoulder is observed. In 1692's Korean Hand Breaking record, it is observed that Koreans use Yong (stacking speed & power) for strikes, which applies to Taekkyeon-Yetbub too.

A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). The interview on page 67 includes Dukgi Song's testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap. There are also online Taekkyeon articles on Taekkyeon Yetbub.

References

Difference between Sibak & Subak

Sibak isn't the same as Subak. Taekkyeon isn't Subak. Medieval Korean encyclopedia differentiates Taekkyeon & Subak. If they were the same, the people in the older era wouldn't have invented a new name to make the distinctions. Murayama Jijun recorded Nanjangbaksi to be a team street fighting game like Korean Prize Fight historically recorded, not a wrestling game nor a kicking game. Sibak hits with any body part. Subak uses frontal slap, side slap, punches, Knife Hand strikes with fist and grab moving front and back, hand and fingers bending (Namseon Choi's description). Also, Taekkyeon has kicks, which would be a main distinction between Subak & Sibak, which is why the older people differentiated Sibak from Subak. Also, Chaeho Shin testified that only Songdo (North Korea) had Subak 100 years ago. Chaeho Shin also described that Subak became Gwonbeop in China, Judo in Japan. Subak has relation to both wrestling & also striking martial art. Sibak (this is also a Taekkyeon) is a new version of Subak which includes kicking, headbutt, punches, etc.

Bearberserk (talk) 18:21, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Old historical records on Taekkyeon-Yetbeob

Taekkyeon has always been teaching both regular Taekkyeon & street fighting Taekkyeon-Yetbeob which hits with any body part including powerful punches with historical Korean traits like shoulder (& torso) rotation, Yongryuk (stacking speed & power in motion), (no fist spin) horizontal fist. Nalparam is a form of Pyunssaum, Sibak (Nanjangbaksi of Bak-si, which is Si-bak) which hits with any body part including punches, kicks, headbutt. Street fighting styles (including punching & kicking) Nalparam & Sibak are taught by Taekkyeon like street fighting style Taekkyeon-Yetbeop is taught by Taekkyeon in South Korea. Taekkyeon's street fighting style Nalparam, Sibak (Nanjangbaksi), Yetbeop are likely created by being inspired by Kung Fu & Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop with little connection to Subak.

An important historical record exists on Korean street fighting game, which is the Prize Fight record in 1895 by Henry Savage Landor in his book "Corea", "the combatants generally fight with their fists, but, like the French, are much given to use their knees and feet as well in the contest."

"분단되지 않았다면 날파람도 이어졌으리라. 다행히 1960년 초, 북한의 계정희 교수에 의해 개성에서 발굴된 것이 있다. 논문에서 택견 기능자 발굴이라는 말을 하는데, 북한학계에서는 날파람도 택견으로 보기에 그런 것이다." Translation: "If Korea was not split, South Korea would also have Nalparam. Fortunately, in the early 1960's, North Korea's professor Jungheui Gye found Nalparam artist. In his report, he described that Taekkyeon artist was found. This is because North Korean academia considers Nalparam also as a Taekkyeon."

Nalparam is taught by Taekkyeon. Sibak is Taekkyeon-Yetbeob. North Korea also describes Nalparam to be cross-training Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu which includes Breaking/Tameshiwari. Regardless of how Breaking's system is for China & Japan, Breaking belonged to sidewalk performance art, power circus, power magic to Korean.

In medieval Jaemulbo book, Sibak was recorded to be also Taekyun, which would mean also being included in Taekyun. "시박은 '서로 치는 것은 씨름의 일종인데 역(亦) 탁견'이라고 되어 있다." Translation: "Sibak's recorded, 'hitting each other (Sibak) is a type of wrestling, this is also Taekkyeon'." "시박? 낯선 이름이다. 위의 재물보에 수박과 함께 소개되고 있는 조선 고유의 체술 이었다." Translation: "Sibak? It's an unfamiliar name. Above in Jaemulbo, it's a Korean martial art introduced together with Subak." Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi & Nanjangbaksi in 1941, which were quite different from Taekyun. "경북군위군의 군사(軍士)훈련이었던 박시(재물보상의 ‘시박’으로 여겨진다. 1941년, 무라야마지준의 글에도 언급되고 있다. 수백명의 사람들이 팔짱을 끼고 서로 어깨로 밀어 붙여 진(陳)을 뚫는 것이다. 나중에 동네 왈패들이 신작로에 모여 난장박시라 하는 패싸움을 했었다)등이 있었다." Translation: Gyungbook military training Baksi, etc existed. Seems Sibak from Jaemulbo. 1941's Murayama Jijun also mentions this. Hundreds of people, arms locked, push each other with shoulders to penetrate formation. Later, town thugs gather on the road to do team street fighting called Nanjangbaksi." (Korean sometimes reverse the word order, like Baksi & Sibak.)

an old Poongsokhwa drawing of Pyunssaum by (most likely) Gisan Joongeun Kim

Also, in 1930's reputable Korean newspaper, it describes that Taekkyeon was recorded by Muyedobotongji as Gwonbeop including hand techniques. 1930's newspaper recorded that Taekkyeon has contents to be recorded as Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop. Although there may be discrepancies between the military version Gwonbeop and the civilian version Sibak, the newspaper corroborated that Taekkyeon has such contents within Taekkyeon.

Like Subak had Subakdaeo club to train, Nalparam also had a club to train. "1935년 7월 22일자 동아일보를 보자. [평양]지난 17일 평양서에서는 부내 창전리에서 주소부정의 현기한, 이오 외 십이명을 검거하야 엄중취조중이라는데 그들은 약 일주일전부터 기림리(산림리) 신궁앞 부근에서 부랑배 백수십여명을 모아노코 "날파람이"(망나니 짓이란 의미)를 연습하며". Translation: "Let's see 1935's July 22nd Dongailbo Newspaper. On the 17th, in Pyungyang's Changjeonli, Gihan Hyun, Oh Yi, etc 12 men were arrested and interrogated. They have gathered over a hundred thugs at Girimli (Sanlimli) Singoong's front, practicing Nalparami."

A direct interview with Dukgi Song was recorded in Munyejinheung by Bohyung Lee, published in 1984 by Munyejinheungwon on Volume 11 Number 1 page 67 (이보형, 문예진흥 제 11권 1호, 문예진흥원, 1984.2, p.67, 이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용). "누상동에는 '장칼'이라는 장사가 있어 키도 크고 힘도 좋고 '복장지르기', '가슴치기'등 택견솜씨가 좋았다." Translation: "Nusangdong had a strongman named Jangkal. He was tall & strong; he was good at Taekyun techniques particularly Bokjangjireugi (Front Stomp Kick), Gaseumchigi (Frontal Chest Slap, slapping chest at front), etc." Dukgi Song testified directly about frontal slap in Taekkyeon. "이보형이 송덕기 옹에게 췌록한 내용". Translation: "the content recorded by Bohyung Lee from direct interview with Dukgi Song."

The same interview & the same book (by Munyejinheungwon & Bohyung Lee, 1984, Munyejinheung Volume 11 Number 1 page 67) includes Dukgi Song's direct testimony how Taekyun Yetbub broke jaw with 1 slap to the jaw as well as his testimony how Taekkyeon had frontal chest slap. There are also online Taekkyeon articles on Taekkyeon Yetbub by the official Taekkyeon organizations.

Sibak (Nanjangbaksi) & Nalparam are street fighting rule martial arts including punching & kicking just like Taekkyeon-Yetbeop. Other than Sibak & Nalparam which are taught by Taekkyeon like South Korea's Taekkyeon-Yetbeop, there's also another traditional Korean martial art in street fighting rule including punching & kicking. There's a Korean martial art called Taegyeok. From the phonetic similarity, it is speculated to be related to Taekkyeon (particularly Taekkyeon-Yetbeop). Taegyeok's original textbook was drawn between 1920's & 1940's, but the currently existing Taegyeok textbook was redrawn in the late 1950's. The age of 1950's Taegyeok textbook was verified by professors and specialists in managing old documents. Taegyeok & its 1950's textbook have been in Northern Jeonla's Gimje, which is a distant away from where Karate (Tode) was taught in 1950's South Korea (also away from 1960's earlier Taekwondo gyms).

References

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History of Taekkyeon

There are some errors in the section about the 才物谱 (Jaemulbo) reference of Taekkyeon.

That section goes:

"Byeon and Subak are Byeon, Gangnyeok is Mu and all these are called Taekkyon" (卞 手搏爲卞 角力爲武 苦今之탁견).

The original text of jaemulbo is in mixed script of Classical Chinese and Hangul. The English translation here is inaccurate.

Some context about the jaemulbo text. 手搏为卞 角力为武 are 3rd century annotations to a 2nd century Chinese book 汉书 on the history of the Han dynasty, explaining the character 卞. What jaemulbo added here is the last part of the sentence 若今之탁견. I believe there was also an error transcribing the character 若(like) into 苦(bitter).

So the translation should be more like:

"Byeon: Subak is Byeon, Gangnyeok is Mu, like today’s Taekkyon" (卞 手搏爲卞 角力爲武 若今之탁견).

Also,

While Subak, Gangyeok, and Mu capture the sounds of 手搏, 角力, and 武, these Chinese characters are quite literally meaningful.

手(hand)搏 (fight): hand to hand combat 角(horn, lock horns, compete)力(strength): strength competition 武: martial, martial game Majiaerhao (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps a more polished translation:

"Byeon: Byeon is hand to hand combat, competing strengths in a martial game, like today’s Taekkyon" (卞 手搏爲卞 角力爲武 若今之탁견).

Majiaerhao (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe the leading texts can be changed to something like the following:

In the book Jaemulbo (also Manmulbo), which included an entry about a 2nd century reference - in the Book of Han - of a contest of unarmed combat, Lee Sung-Ji extended the annotation to say that this competition is like the Taekkyeon of his time. Majiaerhao (talk) 16:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)