Talk:Telectronics/Archive

This page is an archive of messages from February 2006 – November 2006. Do not edit the contents of this page. Please direct any comments to the current talk page.

unpublished refferences

When are you unfaced individuals going to wake up to the snakes in the garss trying to rewrite the histor of Telectronics? There are a number of unpublished refferences on this entry. The Wickapedia rules say that this is not allowed. Please explain this to the great unwashed! Concerned intelegant reader —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.48.79 (talk • contribs) 09:34, July 10, 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove published references from articles as you the IP address which left the preceding comment did here. This is considered vandalism. To do so and leave and edit summary of "knowingly published bulshit" [sic] shows that you are actually not simply a concerned reader but in fact a violator of the Wikipedia neutral point of view policy. You have no given basis for your claim. Your attack on the integrity of the article just minutes after complaining about it makes it difficult for me to assume good faith.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 14:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The basis of the claim is that the references are not published documents. It is a requirement of Wicki that references be published, please explaine?

Bemused reader

What is required is that references be verifiable. Being published is one part of that. I am not in a position to determine the reliability of the published sources in this article. Please provide an explanation as to why the "knowingly published" source is "bulshit" [sic] and not reputable.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 14:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Who takes editorial responsibility for publishing information about a subject that you know nothing about? The mob of annonimous individuals that think they can by reading what is writen find truth? The mob is a dangerous group, remember Hitler!(unsigned comment added 08.55 13 July 2006 by 203.166.245.149)

Edit war Telectronics

You are history rewriter Artificial pacemaker - BiocrawlerSee also Wickham heart pacemaker. {unsigned comment 0416 11 Sept 2006 by 124.168.31.133}

The writer 124.168.31.133 seems to be confusing search words with an article title.

I am User Geoffrey Wickham Co-founder of the company Telectronics Pty Ltd. Persistant modifications to the page are being made by Christopher Gray, son of other co-founder, the late Noel Gray using IP's including 203.217.84.96, 203.214.139.165, 203.214.136.14, 203.206.228.34, 203.217.65.47, 203.158.46.74, 203.206.228.56,210.84.38.207,203.206.254.253,203.217.56.233,203.158.52.94.
C Gray was a boy at the time of the historical events & has made no effort to check the veracity of his view of history by open minded discussion with any of the other persons who were involved in the early years of the company. In those contacts which he has made with others, including me, he has resorted to shouting insults if their view disagrees with his.
His edits are intended to carry forward inaccuracies, fantasy and defamation contained in the private publication "Telectronics, The Early Years", Gray N D & Gray C J, 1994.
(could you please provide information that establishes that the book is fanciful and defamatory?) Of greatest concern to me, in his latest edits, is deletion of the names Jeffcoat and Nicks whose research and contact with Telectronics led to the company commencing cardiac pacemaker research in 1964.
(Could you please provide verifiable refferences for this assertion)

Feb 2nd 2006 GW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geoffrey Wickham (talk • contribs) 02:51, February 1, 2006 (UTC) Apolgies, I have now learned how to 'sign'.none 05:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I will note that there is only circumstantial evidence that these IPs are related to Christopher Gray. And that the other claims here are yet to be verified. —WAvegetarian^TALK_CONTRIBS^EMAIL 19:45, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The references for Telectronics all say 1963 and no mention of jefffcoat is made at the time events occured so wake up and read the refferences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.228.120 (talk • contribs)

To Christopher Gray, please do not be insulting. It would also be gentlemanly of you to cease the anonymity of Ip's and register as a User.

The references you cite are newspaper and magazine clippings of 'feature stories' which are most unreliable sources of historical fact, as the journalists write their story around whatever is said to them by whoever at the time of interview.

I cite: National Heart Foundation Grant G171 of 1963 to Jeffcoat.

I cite: Letter from Jeffcoat to Royal Prince Alfred Hospital 7/27/63. " I understand that under the terms of National Heart Foundation Grant no. G171, a sum of 160 pounds per annum has been put aside for my salary. It is my desire that this money be placed in a 'Pacemaker Fund'"

I cite: From Memoirs of Paul M Trainor, " I met bio-engineer Keith Jeffcoat who was an adviser to some NSW hospitals and with others did pioneering work in pacemakers".

I cite: Manuscript "Telectronics and the History of Pacemaking in Australia" Wickham & Jeffcoat, 1987. This is an accurate and scholarly paper in which Jeffcoat details his research conducted at RPAH. I have said to you previously that I am prepared to Swear an Affidavit testifying to the accuracy of that paper.Geoffrey Wickhamnone 21:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The attempted character assasination of the late Noel Gray continues! What a cowardly attack this is! Paul Trainor was not involved at all in the early days at Telectronics nor was Jeffcot, neither gentleman was employed at telectronics until 1968, when the character assisanation began! If you want to reffer to a "scolarly paper" please cite refferences! The "oficial report" to the National Heart Foundation is not cited in the Wickham Jeffcoat unpublished book. According to the National Heart Foundation grant No G 171 was to Dr Nicks and Dr Nicks alone. This work using the grant G 171 was on a surface mounted radiofrequency generator pacemaker first sugested by Abrams and was a continuation of experiments on a device made by Eddy Hume as reported in the Nicks Hume paper of December 1962. (a perort on this ecperiment is in a newspaper The Sun in 1964) Please explaine how this work contributed to Telectronics development of totally implantable pacemakers which were based on totally implantable pacemakers imported into Australia from 1962 on! This is what was reported in the Buletin article of 1976! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.128.196 (talk • contribs)

C Gray was not a "boy at the time" but a teenager and remembers well what happened and is not dependant upon recolections of his late father. What was your year of birth ?

Not an engineer?

What leads you to make this claim. He is credited everywhere I've seen on line with being a founder of the company. He copublished at least one journal article (Dwyer AF, Wickham GG: Direct current stimulation in spine fusion. Med J Austr 1:73, 1974). What basis is this claim made on? —Preceding unsigned comment added by WAvegetarian (talk • contribs)

== not an engineer ?== It seems that this claim is based on the fact that I do not have a University degree, but neither did the late Noel Gray, so if Chris Gray wishes to use this criterion he should apply it equally. My career evolved from technician level to engineer level by study and practical experience. By 1955 I was chief engineer transformer design department of Philips TCA, Hendon works, Adelaide. M.I.I.E. 5 patents issued USA assigned to Telectronics. list of papers read can be provided.none 22:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Geoffrey Wickham

(What "study" what formal study did Wickham undertake, Noel Gray is a Graduate of the Institution of Engineers and studied Medicine at the University of Sydney from 1948 to 1950. He also graduated from No 6 Officer Cadet Training Unit and was trained in RADAR at the Radiophysics Depo and CSIR. Where is the "equality" of that Mr Wickham?(Anon) [Comments added by 203.158.61.229]58.166.18.210 03:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

==re Ray Swan== As I recall, this chap was a friend of Noel Gray and a potential financier. It is possible that he was nominated in the original Articles of Association of Telectronics. I met him once only.none 22:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)Geoffrey Wickham Ray Swan invested 500 pounds in Telectronics that was the faith he had in Noel Gray and was registered as a founding director of telectronics Pty Limited. This whole talk page is biased in contravention with the policy of Wickapedia because the opening unsubstantiated statements by Wickham collor the discussion! If you at Wickapedia are only interested in pushing one barrow and have read only one referrence (Wickahm and Jeffcoats) then you are not worth anyones time because you have no accademic rigor. The recent criticism of Wickapedia that refferences are not checked must be true because this work is biased! end —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.146.98 (talk • contribs)

Please type ~~~~ at the end of your comments. This creates an automatic signature, so we can keep track of who is saying what. Cnwb 23:03, 23 February 2006 (UT

Re Radiofrequency generator powering implanted electrode in 1962-3

The allegation that Telectronics followed this work is false and irrational as there were totally implantable pacemakers being implanted in patients in Australia from 1961. To fail to acknowledge the views of the managing director Noel Gray as written in his book Telectronics the early years is biased. By the way the work was reported in the Medical Journal of Australia and was originally an ideah of Abrahms and a device was made for Dr Nicks by ex-Kriesler engineer Eddy Hume. Please read the Medical Journal article and do not accept one view above others as this is biased and not displaying academic rigor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.158.51.34 (talk • contribs)

Please type ~~~~ at the end of your comments. This creates an automatic signature, so we can keep track of who is saying what. Cnwb 23:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

What refferences has Wickapedian WAvegetarian sourced to be an expert on the history of Telectronics?

Vandalism is occuring on the Telectronics site by a 19 yo who is biased as he has not recognised references pointed out on the site. This has resulted in one view being promoted in favour of Wickham and Jefacot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.248.118 (talk • contribs)

First off, my age is irrelevant. Second off, that isn't my age. Third off, I have looked at some, and in fact added to, the list of references. The stuff I've found online contradicts your edits. —WAvegetarian•_{CONTRIBUTIONS}^TALK• ^EMAIL• 23:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Reference material is required for academic rigor

The assertions about the "following on" coments in regard to Telectronics entry into pacemakers is not based on any reference. This is in stark contrast to the refference material contained in Telectronics the Early Years in which there are ove 36 reffernces. I would like to ask Wickapedia if it is possible for someone there to read the relevant references and establish from these a story that accords with them. If it is left as a conclusion that there are differing views then so be it. I must strongly protest that it appears to be that knowone has bothered to read any of the refferences cited. There semes to be knowone in charge and knowone responsible for what is published on this site. This makes it extremely dificult to contribute to the encyclopedia with legitimate refferences as they seem to be ignored. I see this as a real problem for you and your work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.248.118 (talk • contribs)

For the third time! Please type ~~~~ at the end of your comments. This creates an automatic signature, so we can keep track of who is saying what. Cnwb 12:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The people responsible are the community. Everything is based on consensus. If I had access to those sources, I would be happy to read them. I'm not really sure where I might find a copy of Telectronics: The Early Years. It seems to not have been publicly published as I haven't found evidence that it actually exists. Even if it does, it seems to violate WP:OR. There's also the problem that the WA in my name stands for Washington State, USA not Western Australia. I don't have any way to verify these sources. If they were available online or locally to an editor in Australia, then they could be verified. The article is currently protected from editing by anyone without Wikipedia:Administrator powers. Neither Geoff nor I have these, so the article will remain in its present state until something gets worked out. —WAvegetarian•_{CONTRIBUTIONS}^TALK• ^EMAIL• 23:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC

The book 'Telectronics the early years' is published andhas an ISBN number. It is the only published book on the early times at Telectronics and a number of other people were contacted before its publication. It is available in all major Australian Libraries and many universities!( unsigned comment)

from Geoffrey Wickham

I have today once again emailed Christopher Gray,in a courteous manner,in the hope that common sense might prevail in resolving this dispute without it having to go to arbitration. A reply was requested. It would probably be beneficial if a copy of "Telectronics - The Early Years" is read by an editor in Australia. Chris would probably co-operate in this. Should the dispute need to go to arbitration I shall accept the decision of the arbitrators.none 02:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC) Geoffrey Wickham No answer was receivednone 06:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Unprotecting

No recent discussion. Time to edit. --Tony Sidaway 00:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC) There is bias at Wicki! Please reffer to Australian ASIC records for an acurate record of shareholding in Telectronics and note that a "controling interest" was not acheived in 1967 because Nucleus and Trainor certianly did not have this in 1967 over Telectronics.

(Response: In 1967 Telectronics was facing bankruptcy because Noel Gray had spent all loan monies on grandiose self promotion. By way of a 'handshake agreement' Paul Trainor/Nucleus Holdings took over the day to day management of the company. The 'handshake agreement' was formalised in January 1968 by Nucleus taking up 50% of the issued voting shareholding. From that point in time Telectronics was run in a professional manner& traded out of debt. In 1969, after some internal dispute, Trainor was formalised as Chairman of Directors with the power of casting vote on the 3 man Board of Directors). none 06:39, 22 April 2006

Telectronics was not facing bankruptcy in 1967. It was selling it's cardiac monitors and defibrulators through selling agents and they stoped paying Telectronics and it was this withoulding of payment that cause a need for cash, working capital. Up till that point under Noel Gray's leadership he, Wickham and the loyal staff of Telectronics had designed, researched and developed, and put into production a range of medical electronic equipment on a very tight budget. This was an extraordinary acheivement with the cost of setting up a pacemaker production facility in 1965 with clean room forward ordering of components and component testing equipment designed by Len Troubridge, all paid for by Noel Gray from the sale of his TV service business and mortguages on the family home and borrowings from his father in law Robert Simes and friend Harold Duffell. When Paul Trainor was issued with shares in 1968 he bought an interest in all this hard work and proven products. The only thing that changed was that Telectronics started to sell this equipment directly and Nole Gray was responsible for this. Noel Gray never enguaged in "grandiouse self promotion". Paul Trainor did not take over the "day to day management of the company". In support of this see The Age Newspaper article by Phillip McIntosh quoting Trainor; "Therefore, I made four different companies with Nucleus as the centerpoint, but each company was autonomous with its own board and its own executives" He said. Noel Gray was in 1968 registered as Managing Director a position that Paul Trainor was never recorded as having in the Corporate Affairs records. Managing director performs the task of managing the day to day running of the company. Nucleus pruchased a 50% shareholding recorded in January 1968 and that does not add up to a "controling interest" in anyones language. Control must be more than 50%. The "control" of the Board was attempted in 1969 when the Articles of Association were changed but at the same time the shareholdings also changed with the conversion of debt into shares owed to Noel Gray Beth Gray and Harold Duffell. Nucleus' shareholding fell below 50%. The three afformentioned now owned more than 50% until 1971 when a new share issue was made and paid for by declaring a dividend after issuing them to Nucleus Wickham and Gray. This devalued the percentages of the Grays and Duffell. The taxation records of the company and Noel Gray support the existance of "B Class Ordinary Shares" as do other documents.

edit of 23 March 2006

This edit reconciles the numerical notations in the text with the footnotes. Some footnotes not referred to in the text were deleted while some footnotes of relevence were moved to 'Sources'.It is my hope that C Gray will find these changes to be in the best interest of the encyclopedic quality of the entry.My first edit of 3/23 inexpicably was 'saved' before editing was completed, hence the 2nd edit.Geoffrey Wickhamnone 04:12, 23 March 2006 (UT

Refference (sic) material should be published in accordance with Wickapedia rules ./// For the fourth time please type none 03:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC) after your comment. The preceeding comment was added by 203.206.238.54none 03:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no published refference for the incorrect assertion that Telectronics "followed" Jeffcoat and Nicks work. My understanding of Wicki rules is that there must be a published sourse for material to be encyclopedic!

Unsubstanciate claims are continually asserted about Telectronics entry into medical electronics. The truth is that Noel Gray studied medicine from 1948 50 and there he formulated the ambition to develop pacemakers and defibs and monitors. It should be recognised that Mark Lidwell adn Edgar Both made and use the first pacemaker in the world in 1926 in Sydney and that Noel studied their work when he was a med student at the Univesity. I know that misleading information is being promoted and there are people who remember Noel and his ambition, so be warned I have support for my position and I will not give up, after all Noel is my father.

April edits=vandalism

If you look at this source you will see support both for Wickham being an engineer and acquisition by Nucleus. Any changes refuting this will be seen as vandalism. —WAvegetarian•_{CONTRIBUTIONS}^TALK• ^EMAIL• 14:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Chris Gray states " I have support for my position". Would he please provide to me, or to this Wikipedia discussion, evidence of his "support"Geoffrey Wickhamnone 23:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC

This refference about Trainor is self promoting and is not backed up by published refferences. The taxation returns for Telectronics shows clearly that Nucleus did not own 50% of Telectronics shares from 1969 and that arguable legally he therefore did not control the Board. The changes to Telectronics Articles of Association and share capital in 1969 required Nucleus to hold 50% of the issued ordinary shares in the company to have the right to two directors on the Board and for Trainor to be Chairman and to have a casting vote IOW control.

There are things called Corporate Affairs Records that companies are suposed to submit records of their legal happenings. Things like Special resolutions, changes to share holdings, changes to authorised shares of a company etc. There are no records in the Corporate Affairs to suport the claim that Nucleus had a "comtroling interest in Telectronics" in 1967 or 1968 or into the 70s.

vandalism

Christopher Gray has continued to delete and modify the article page using multiple IP's and without signing by four tildes since the page was unprotected by Tony Sidaway March 13. I have twice emailed him rebutting the comments he has posted on this discussion page but he has failed to answer my mails. He appears to be obsessed with his version of history, for which he claims to have "support" of others but fails to provide evidence of support by any others either by providing that evidence to me or by publishing in 'discussion'. It is time for the page to once again be protected.Geoffrey Wickham. none 03:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC) Discussions continue with Wickham and there is evidence.

It is confirmed that email discussion has commenced. Geoffrey Wickham none 06:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC) [The references cited of paul Trainor's memiors and a letter writen by Keith Jeffcoat are not relevant to incidents that occured before they joined the company. The decision maker before they joined was Noel Gray he paid the bils and provided the finaces He who pays the piper calls the tune!] Comments added by 203.158.61.229 28 June 2006 58.166.18.210 03:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

(Keith Jeffcoat was the informant for an aricle in the AUSTRALIAN GEOGRAPHIC in which it is claimed that Jeffocat founded a company called telectronics in 1960. When the magazine editor was contacted he said that he sent the copy to Jeffcoat to check for inaccuracies before publiction. It was published adn it is false.) Unsigned comment added by 203.158.61.229 26 June 200658.166.18.210 03:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Jeffcoat

Keith Jeffcoat was a journalist for Radio and Hobbies in the 60's and a part time jaz musician he was not a scientist nor was he the originator for Telectronics' entry into medical electronics. Telectronics was not started with the objects to only make industrial electronics. The Objects of the company include statements that suport an entry to medical electronics. If the Articles Objects did not Telectronics would not have been able to do this because of the legal Doctrine of Ultra Vares. This doctrine prevents a company from acting outside its stated Objects contained in its Articles of Association. This means that it is misleading to make the statement that Telectronics was set up with limited Objects to only work on products for industry. (CHris Gray BA LL B)

The statements above are refuted.

Re Jeffcoat : 1) See citations under heading "Edit War". 2) Jeffcoat was not a journalist for 'Radio & Hobbies', he was a staff journalist of 'Electronics Australia' in 1963-4. 3) Jeffcoat conducted cardiac pacemaker research at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, including the design of an implantable pacemaker which survived 9 months of canine implant in 1963-4. 4) Jeffcoat visited Telectronics in early 1964 showing the explanted canine pacemaker. This visit was pivotal to the decision by Telectronics to commence pacemaker research. 5) Between 1964 and 1967 Jeffcoat, while CEO of Weston Electronics, gave of his time without charge to Telectronics in conducting animal research At RPAH & RNSH in collaboration with me and Lab. technician Ray Kearns. 6) Jeffcoat became an employee of Telectronics in 1968 and had at least one US patent granted in his name assigned to Telectronics. The attempts by C Gray to exclude Jeffcoat from the Wikipedia article "Telectronics" are deplorable.

Re "ultra vires" : 1) The stated objectives of Telectronics, at incorporation in 1963, recited a) To design manufacture instal and maintain instruments and eqipment for science and industry b) To conduct research and experiment in the future development of specialised electronics equipment. (no mention of medical equipment or cardiac pacemakers). The letterhead of Telectronics from 1963 - 1965 read " Development design and manufacture - sales and service of electronic measuring controlling and recording equipment for science and industry" [source: " Telectronics - The Early Years" Gray ND & Gray CJ, page 9]

--Geoffrey Wickham 06:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Geoffrey Wickham

(1. I am not sure which version of history is being read from but the year 1963 therer was no "Electronics Australia" magazine. The journal was caller Radio TV and Hobbies.

2. Keith William Jeffcoat was never "CEO Western Electronics"! For the reader that would make him the cheif executive officer of a company run by its founder and owner, sound familiar. Media reports also claimed that Keith Jeffcoat was founder of Telectronics (the Australian Geographic)

3. The mention of medical electronics would not be required if the generic wording is stated. Need I explain this? The letterhead is irrelevant for the purposes of the Doctrine of Ultra Vares.) unsigned comments posted 5 July 2006 by 124.168.26.16. Ip address tracked to Coffs Harbour NSW Ip provider IINET Limited. --Geoffrey Wickham 06:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

inaccurate refferences

The Trainor refferences are not authority for the assertion that telectronics followed on from Nicks Neither is the Jeffcoat letters. The National Heart foundation does not support the assertion about Jeffcoat either. Who is responsible for editorieal integrityat this place? If anyone was you would soon see that the history of the edits to this entry are inconsistent with the truth being told from the beggining.

Defamation

Refer to edit of 6.20 UTC 21 July 2006 by 58.167.9.157 [by me, my log-on dropped out during editing]. My objective in initiating the Article 'Telectronics' was to provide an accurate historical record of the contribution made to medical technology by the company. It should be noted that the Article does not contain glorification of me. My contribution has been well recognised. Refer to Geoffrey Wickham
Repeated changes have been made to the Article by Christopher Gray, son of the co-founder of Telectronics Pty Ltd, in attempts to glorify his late father. The changes made to the Article, particularly in those immediately preceeding my re-edit of 21 July, contain statements which are seriously defamatory. Defamation is not tolerable. Any further publication of statements defamatory to me will result in a Civil court action against Gray.
I shall not be further editing the article. Instead, three persons who were closely associated with the company in its formative years have volunteered to monitor the Article.Geoffrey Wickham

This is an intersting comment since the original article was entitled "The Wickham Pacemaker" could Mr Wickham please explaine this? [Bemused reader]Unsigned comment added 11.25 21 July 2006 by 124.168.19.209.
A track back to the original article shows the comment to be untrue, it was headed "Telectronics".60.230.98.5 02:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This was found in a search under "wickham pacemaker" and although it has been since edited it is still available to be found I think it needs and explanation as there was certianly an entry entitled the wickham pacemaker.

Could the wicki plople please explaine the edit of this from the discussion page. Are you being biased towards wickham? or are you just incompitant?

The writer of the above appears to confuse search words with an article title. The text reproduced below is similar to the current "Telectronics" Wikipedia article.

Wickham heart pacemaker From Biocrawler The Telectronics Heart Pacemaker was the product of an Australian company co-founded by engineer Geoffrey Wickham in 1963, in Sydney, Australia.

The company, named Telectronics Pty Ltd, pioneered many of the early technological advances in implantable heart pacemaking (see cardiac pacemaker) to become the world's technological leader in the art from 1969 until the late '70s.

Wickham's initial research was funded by co-founder Noel Gray, conducted using the facilities of the University of Sydney School of Medical Sciences' animal laboratory, and led to understanding of the co-relation between heart electrode surface area vs stimulating pulse width and energy, in turn to allow pacemaking using a short 0.5 millisecond impulse, which conserved battery energy.

Following material research in 1967 came the understanding that the epoxy resins then used to encapsulate the pacemaker components were permeable to water vapour, leading to the decision to focus on research into hermetic sealing of the pacer.

In 1969 a young engineer, David Cowdery, joined the company and accepted the challenge. He succeeded by developing methods by which titanium encasing shells were drawn from sheet titanium, with a ceramic feed-though for the electrode terminal and the final assembly hermetically closed using an automated argon arc welder of his own design.

In parallel, David Money (later to head the artificial cochlear implant program) developed the world's first pacemaker microcircuits. These innovations were combined to produce a highly reliable pacemaker using (then conventional) mercuric oxide-zinc cells for the battery.

In 1970 Wickham, Cowdery and Money commenced development of a new generation of pacemakers to use the pioneering Wilson Greatbatch lithium-iodide cell as it's energy source. This generation,(1974) using the combination of the 0.5 millisecond pulse, microcircuit electronics, titanium hermetic encasement and the the WG lithium cell was the foundation for all of today's heart pacemakers.

Telectronics Inc. was incorporated in the USA in 1974, operating out of Wilson Greatbatch's facility in Clarence NY, then in 1977 acquired the General Electric pacemaker facility in Milwaukee which was later relocated to Denver. Control of Telectronics was gained by Pacific-Dunlop of Australia but after a recall of an outside sourced electrode lead in 1996 P-D sold the company to St. Jude Medical

Request for Comment

{{{How about this for fantacy?

Trainor's first opportunity arose when Telectronics, a fledgling company led by Geoffrey Wickham, a young electronics engineer, and Noel Gray, approached him to take a financial interest in their company which had begun cardiac pacemaker research in 1964. That followed research conducted by Keith Jeffcoat and the surgeon Rowan Nicks at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital.

In 1967 Nucleus acquired a controlling interest in Telectronics and from that point, under Trainor's co-ordination, the path of Telectronics was forward: always with a global strategy.

Trainor DID NOT GAIN A CONTRONING INTEREST UNTIL HE CHANGED THE aRTICLES OF aSSOCIATION OF tELECTRONICS IN 1969 HE HELD A 50% INTEREST UNTIL THEN. fACTS ARE FACTS RECORDS ARE RECORDS.}}}

The above interpolated posting between {{{ and }}} was by 124.168.27.153 20.48 6 October 2006.Geoffrey Wickham 03:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a dispute over the history of Telectronics and the roles that certain individuals played in its early years. People commenting should follow Wikipedia policy as always. Just to clear up any confusion, relevant policies include WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:NLT and WP:AGF.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• There is a bunch of animosity between Christopher Gray and Geoffrey Wickham. Both have added info to the article supported only by unpublished documents. There has also been quite a lot of edit warring and threats/attacks flying around. The dispute is in dire need of a knowledgeable neutral party and a large helping of outside input. I think that it is hard to know what is the actual truth as we have only two editors who have previous knowledge and they disagree.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 12:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I doubt that there is animosity from Geoff Wickham but I know he is irritated as am I by attempts to rewrite history. (The history of Telectronics from The founding Chairman and Managing Directors point of view was never written until 'Telectronics The Early Years') (Media reports including the Royal Prince Alfred Hospital magazine were nonsence, written by people who were not with Telectronics at the time the story purportes to describe) Sometime in early 1964 I was one of those at a meeting at RPA to discuss the possibility of gaining further funding from Nat. Heart to continue the research initiated by Rowan. It had been suggested by Nat. Heart that it was time for commerce to be involved and the meeting recommended that Mr Jeffcoat, who was present, should seek a suitable company. Later he introduced me to Geoff Wickham of the Telectronics company to which I gave freely my support and participation in research by Wickham and Jeffcoat. I speak most highly of both of them. In those early days, of course things did not always go as hoped but Geoff and Keith made themselves available at any time of the day and any day of the week to come to the hospital to assist with problems. Without doubt their knowledge was critical to patient management decisions which avoided loss of life. I was most pleased to be asked to be a referee when Geoff was nominated for an award by the Order Of Australia.

In the middle 1990's I received by mail a copy of a booklet titled "Telectronics the early years" with a note attached saying "Now you know the truth" signed by Christopher Gray the son of Noel Gray who was the early administrator of the Telectronics company. The booklet could be described as fantastic in the true sense of the word. At my age I do not want to be involved in the nonsense being repeated in Wikipedia but history must no be rewritten because Wickham, Jeffcoat, Gray Snr and the company described in the Wikipedia article contributed greatly to mankind.203.51.180.179 03:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) QRS 03:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Since QRS is Dr Nicks would you reveal that you knew nothing of what went on behind the doors of telectronics and that Noel Gray wrote the book Telectronics the Early Years?

Let us start with the facts and not a versiion of them that was published in media reports of the time. These media reports igrnored Noel Gray! How can they be accurate histroical records? Noel Gray had the concept of forming a medical electronics company. Should that be left out? No! Because he was the brainchild of Telectronics and the attempt to replace him with Jeffcoat and Nicks is deplorable and factually incorrect!

What part of Telectronics The Early Years is "fantastic in the true sense of the word"?

Comments by editors not previously involved

• Information contained only in unpublished documents is not admissable under Wikipedia standards. If someone wants to establish their version of history then they need to do it in the real world first, then and only then edit it into here. Why waste time on Wikipedia when there is history to be rewritten? Jefffire 12:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Article's author

• For the time being I shall not further edit the article but shall be back in a couple of months to clean-up the sources and footnotes.User:Geoffrey WickhamGood luck {comment 'good luck' added 10.17 24 August 2006 by 203.214.148.6058.167.31.84 03:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Further comment by Article's author

• My legal counsel has advised me that, while many of the edits published in Wikipedia by C Gray constitute defamation, an action is unlikely to succeed because of the difficulty of proving beyond reasonable doubt that the author of the edits is C Gray. Therefore I advise Wikipedia editors that the threat of legal action is removed.

For the benefit of Wikipedia editors and other readers I make the following comments: 1. Gray alleges that Telectronics was founded by his father N D Gray alone and not by Gray & Wickham jointly. This allegation is in contradiction to statements contained within the publication "Telectronics-The Early Years" by Gray N D & Gray C J wherein at page 9 is stated "on 12th November 1963 the partnership was dissolved in favour of a limited liability Company styled Telectronics Pty Ltd". This confirms that a business relationship between Gray & Wickham existed prior to incorporation.

The same publication, at page 15 states "The authorised capital of Telectronics was 2000 shares of $2 each, two of which had been issued, one each to Wickham and myself". This confirms that Telectronics was founded jointly and equally by Wickham and Gray.

2. C Gray, in Wikipedia editing, alleges that "Wickham was given one share". It would not be possible for N Gray to gift a share to Wickham unless Gray was already the proprietor of Telectronics, which clearly he was not.

3. C Gray, in Wikipedia editing, alleges that "Wickham was not an engineer". The Gray publication, referred to above, states at page 13 " I had made Geoff Wickham Technical Director so that he could spend his time exclusively on technical design .." Such a role would not be possible to a non-engineer. Further, Wickham was admitted as a full member of I.I.E. and further had 5 patents issued in the USA assigned to Telectronics.

It would be in the best interest of the Wikipedia organisation if this matter were to be expediently resolved by whatever processes are available. To this end I shall appreciate guidance from Wikpedia editors having greater knowledge of possible processes than I have.Geoffrey Wickham144.137.4.211 00:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)I confirm it was me who published the preceeding editGeoffrey Wickham 02:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC

Suggestion to Administrators

As stated by Cnwb this page is a mess & also is in excess of 39 Kb's.article size. To exclude further "mess" would it be possible to block edits not signed by four tildes ? The article History is also a mess. Would it not be possible to block editing of the Article by other than registered users? This would not compromise the objectives of Wikipedia because, seemingly, there is only a single non-registered user editing changes to the Article.Geoffrey Wickham 02:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC) It would be a travesty if editing was suspended because ther is no editorial responsibility at this place!

Conduct of discussion

There has recently been a spate of anonymous IP addresses contributing to this discussion. Could these users please follow the correct procedure for Wikipedia Talk Pages; responses to other comments do not go in brackets throughout the comments, but should be placed after the entire comment you are replying to. Also, please use ~~~~ after your comments, so that people can keep track of who is saying what. For more information, please see the header I've added at the top of this page. Cnwb 23:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Wickham has misrepresented the facts about Noel Gray and has completely ignored his background by claiming that Telectronics was started to make industrial electronics which is not true. Noel Gray always intended to start a medical electronics busines that can be established by living members of Kriesler who worked with him and account for his making an implantable pacemaker in the 50's before he started Telectronics.

Further Wickham had never worked as an engineer before meeting Noel Gray.144.131.187.115 06:02, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Founder

The dictionary definition of "founder" is associated with the one who "institutes for the first time". Since it was Noel Gray's idea to start a medical electronics company and Wickham denies that he ever had any intention of going into medical electronics until, he asserts, he met Dr Nicks and jeffcoat in 1964, Noel Gray was the founder of the medical electronics business Telectronics. He and he alone devised this when he was working at Kriesler from 1953-59, where he even made an implantable pacemaker. (according to his former work collegues) According to Australian journal the Buletin in what appears to read as an interview with Wickham he asserts that he was first drawn into this essoteric area in 1963, this contradicts his new assertion that it was 1964 and does not explain Noel Gray's publicly stated aim to start a business in medical electronics in the 50's as supported by his former collegues.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.84.33.240 (talk • contribs) 01:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

So now you're arguing semantics. That's fine.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 04:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC

User 210.84.33.240 makes a curious statement "made an implantable pacemaker" in "1953-'59", as the first implantable pacemaker is generally attributed to Rune Elmqvist and Senning in 1958. Refer Artificial pacemaker, history. Their design was not successful because of the technological limitations of germanium transistors and the nickel-cadmium batteries available at that time. The first commercial silicon transistor was the Fairchild type 2N697 of 1958. (pbs.org/transistor/science/events/silicon 1. html). The first succesful implantable pacemaker is generally attributed to Wilson Greatbatch in 1962; the latter using silicon transistors and the RM1 mercuric-oxide zinc battery cell developed for Greatbatch by Mallory USA.144.131.187.62 01:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That is not in dispute except in so far as Noel Gray made an experimental pacemaker caled the P1 at Kriesler as described by a former work colegue. The Elmquist Senning pacemaker was also an experimental device and was only used in 1958 at the incestance of the wife of the patient that needed the device. Senning later expressed his disapointment of the device in a lecture and so it was never claimed as a successfull acheivement. The Gray P1 of the 50's was never used to otherwire to prove his theory for the viability of epoxy resign encapsultaion of a subcutaneous device based on the earlier work by Dr Lidwell and Edgar Booth at the University of Sydeny. I enmhasise that Noel Gray studied there from 1948-50 and was given the notes by Professor Cotton on the Lidwell/Booth device. This established the custom for Telectronics to go forward and develop pacemakers. If you despute that you must read 'Telectronics the early Years' and you can find it at all major libraries in Australia.(unsigned comment 09.52 UTC 21 November 2006 by 203.217.86.137)

So where you said "made an implantable pacemaker" you were very untruthful ! You now say it was an "experimental pacemaker" which was "never used otherwire(sic)to prove his theory for the viability of epoxy resign(sic) encapsultaion(sic) of a subcutaneous device). How, when and where was this test of "the viability of expoxy resin encapsulation" performed?C'mon, pull the other leg - it plays 'Waltzing Matilda' ! 139.168.35.133 05:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you calling me a liar? Made an implantable pacemaker is clearly true even if it was never implanted especially when you consider that the Senning Elmquist pacemaker was an experimental device as is clearly stated in all the material published on the device. You should read up on this and then read up on th Lidwell/ Booth device and try to understand the cross/disciple nature of the subject matter and then you will perhaps understand the nature of the subject matter, otherwise keep your comments to a subject you know about. Football perhaps!(unsigned comment 08:37 UTC 23 November 2006 by 124.168.2.171)

To the first point of above, a Question: Are you 124.168.2.171 the person who signed an email to a Wikipedia Adminstrator (available under GFDL) as " Chris Gray BA, LLB Solicitor of the Supreme Court of NSW"? Is the claim of being a "Solicitor of the Supreme Court of NSW" true or a lie ? 203.51.190.15 05:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)