Talk:Telectronics/Archive 2

References - discussion December 2006

The Powerhouse museum at "Display panels tracing the history of 'Telectronics' cardiac pacemakers and defibrillators, 1990". Objects from the collection of the Powerhouse Museum, Sydney, Australia. Powerhouse Museum. Retrieved 2006-12-04. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) states The company was founded by pioneer in medical electronics, Noel Gray, from Crookwell, NSW. It began as a sole trader in Sydney in 1961 and was incorporated in 1963. I regard the Powerhouse Museum as a reliable source per WP:RS and it has the advantage of being an online source easily viewable by those who wish to view the reference.--Golden Wattle ^talk 23:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

With respect to Golden Wattle and WP:RS the text on the Powerhouse Museum display is not a reliable source from which to conclude "Gray is Founder".

The source of the statement on the display board [References] is "Gray,Christopher, Obituaries: Noel Gray, Sydney Morning Herald, 19 November 1999, p36".

The reference reads " Pacemaker 1920-1999. A pioneer in Australian medical electronics and the founder of medical electronics company Telectronics has died in Queensland age 78. Born in Crookwell,NSW, Gray was an unretentious lad of humble birth who went on to create a new industry ......". "By Christopher Gray".

As in many othe publications which could be referenced as authentic, it is Gray citing Gray in support of Gray assertions.58.170.253.174 03:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a good point. Just as our readers should check our sources. We should check our sources' sources. In this case, the source of the info you found is exactly the same person who removed part of the article yesterday and replaced it with "Get fusked Wickapediawankers!". He is also responsible for the...lovely edit summaries viewable in the article's history. The obituary of a man written by his son is hardly an unbiased source.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 04:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Following on from this logic then thw Wicki fuskwits should also check the refferences on the Telectronics entry particularly the Wickham Jeffcoay unpublished references to the manuscript that they wrote. Sound familiar? Can you reffer to a document writen by the person asserting the alleged fact? (Foscorelli). Unsigned comment 07:54 4 December 2006 by 124.168.5.66 09:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• The Powerhouse museum meet the standards of WP:RS. The museum is one of Australia's leading museums. The museum used the obituary published in the Sydney Morning Herald as one of its sources, but not all. That means the museuam made a judgement call that it met their standards. Accordingly the source meets our standard. Material citing a reliable source should not be removed. I note also that material on the boards cannot be sourced from the obituaries as the display panels date 9 years before the obituaries. Note the Sydney Morning Herald would also be a reliable source. Original research is not acceptable. We are trying to get this article away from original commentary and the way to do that is by using published sources from authorative publishers. --Golden Wattle ^talk 10:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

An article in the Sydney Morning Herald would be a reliable source. A paid advertisement, which is what an obituary is, seems different to me. Then again, most of the sources we have for this article seem to go back to one of the two of them. The text that you are citing on that page isn't the text on the display boards; it is the statement of significance. The text you are citing was written after the piece was donated in 2005. Another example is this where you can see that the museum piece has no associated text, though the statement of significance is essentially the same as for the other piece you found. I agree with you, though, that as an RS it is their call to make, not ours. I would like to have sources that were truly independent, however this may not be possible.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 10:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the qualms about an obituary written by a family member as a source. However, that is not the source in question. The Powerhouse Museum has some objects and has written a statement of significance about those objects - derived in part from the collection and in part from a number of other sources which they state, one of which is the obituary in question. There comes a point at which one cannot dismiss all sources because they refer in part back to an obituary written by a family member. The Powerhouse certainly meets the standards of WP:RS. So does the Australian Science and Technology Heritage Centre and so does the Sydney Morning Herald in the case of an obituary of another person involved in the company, Paul Trainor. [1] Trainor's obituary was written by someone apparently unrelated to Trainor or Wickham or Gray. As an apparently independant source, the statement in the obituary Trainor's first opportunity arose when Telectronics, a fledgling company led by Geoffrey Wickham, a young electronics engineer, and Noel Gray, approached him to take a financial interest in their company which had begun cardiac pacemaker research in 1964. is ample reason to substantiate "Telectronics Pty Limited was incorporated in Sydney, Australia,in 1963 by engineers Noel Gray and Geoffrey Wickham initially designing and manufacturing industrial and scientific instruments but diversifying into medical electronics and commencing cardiac pacemaker research in 1964." That Telectronics was started as by Gray as a sole trader in 1961 is substantiated by the Powerhouse. How they derived that information I am not sure. If Wickham or anybody else wishes to dispute it, Wikipedia is not the place - take it up with the Powerhouse Museum - if they change their text, then we can change the article. Ignoring the Powerhouse's assertion is in itself original research.--Golden Wattle ^talk 20:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

A further comment to put some context: the policy of WP:V applies, in particular: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Also applicable is the guideline WP:COI#Defending interests : the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted.--Golden Wattle ^talk 22:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to both WAvegetarian & Golden Wattle for your contributions. The argument, well presented by Golden Wattle, as to the validity of The Powerhouse Museum reference is accepted as being within the intent of WP:RSand WP:V, as is the guideline WP:COI#Defending interest. For the record, there is conflict between the text of the Museum reference to 'Founder' and content within the Gray & Gray publication "Telectronics - The Early Years" wherein at pp 8,9 there is reference to a "partnership" between Gray & Wickham preceeding incorporation of Telectronics Pty Ltd in 1963. However, having said that, the question of whether either or both founded the company is of negligible importance in the overall context of the Article, so is not worth further debate. We are happy with the Article as it currently stands and hope that Mr Gray might show wisdom by taking a similar view.144.137.45.87 03:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

To further the discussion regarding refferences you might look at other published material in the Age Newspaper in which Paul Trainor claims to have founded the company Telectronics in 1963. You should also be cognisant of the fact that Robert Foot was not with the company until 1978 and so could not possibly know anything about what happened before he joined the company except second hand from Trainor, a published liar. He was the informant for a number of articles that he, Trainor claimed many things about Telectronics and pacemakers that were not true. Also Wickham was reported as saying that he was first involved in pacemakers in 1963 in a Buletin article and that he set up a pacemaker facility at Telectronics with a grant from the National Heart Foundation. This is a fabrication and is calculated to ignore Noel Gray and family's financial commitment to Telectronics and that Noel Gray sold his Tv repair business North Shore TV services to finance the establishment of the Telectronics pacemaker production facility. This can all be found in Telectronics the Eartly Years, I suggest yo have an Australian Wicki read it at a State or National library.

...which was written by...you guessed it, "Noel Gray and family." This is not ideal. What we need is a reliable independent source. This may be hard if not impossible to come by. Who was it that founded Wikipedia? Was it Jimbo Wales, or Larry Sanger? Telectronics, the Early Years is, I would assume, as unbiased and NPOV as an autobiography. The Age Newspaper, assuming it isn't in a letters to the editor or obituary section written by Trainor himself, would be a reliable source. If we find reliable sources saying different things we should address the discrepancies in a Founding Controversy section, or something like that. As for the opening section, we can leave out the word founding and just put who incorporated it, as it is now.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 22:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments from editor from IINET and responses

Dear boy read the refferences and you will find that there are many claims at the truth!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.158.41.169 (talk • contribs) 10 December 2006. Let us look at refference material. 'Keeping Pace' by Brian Hoad the buletin March 31 1973.

""Historical constraints force us into doing esoteric things on shoestring budgets."" Which sounds as if another winge about to be delivered from way out on the fringe of Australian cultural endeavour> Geoffrey Wickham. however, is not an angry young artist lamenting his lack of recognition. >>>>> In 1963 when Wickham was first drawn into this esoteric area of engineering, pacemakers were unreliable raraties."

This is writen as an interview with Wickham and clearly contradicts the assertion that 1964 was the first entry to pacemakers. there are a multitude of other publications that also suport 1963 and so why do you put 1964 as the beginings of Telectronics pacemakers? Robert Foot was not with the company until many years after the event and could not possibly knoe anything about those years and neither was Paul Trainor who joined the company in 1968 after all the hadr development work had been done. Please correct the histor as you are relying on heresay for your refference material on 1964 and this is in conflict with other published documents. The Wickapedia is in disput with published material and is rewriting history without checking the veracity of its sources. (Intelegent reader) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.66.222 (talk • contribs).

....The Bulletin article cited above was a 'feature story' written by the journalist following telephone interviews with several people. All of what was written was out of context; a fuller context would have provided a more accurate story.138.217.85.92 04:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Cited sources supporting 1964 is [2] and 1963 is [3] Not an interview with Wickham. The Bulletin interview has not been referenced to date. I have reverted an edit by 203.217.66.222 for which no reference was provided. --Golden Wattle ^talk 10:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The Reference to the Trainor obituary that says that Trainor left Watson Victor in 1964 is in conflict with the entry under Paul Trainor in the Australian's Who's Who ehich states clearly that he was emploued at Watson Victor until 1966. He then left and formed Nucleus in 1967 as is recorded in the Corporate Affairs records of the company, Nucleus Holdings Pty Limited. he foremed this company with Brian Hatfield. I suggest Robert Foot get a copy of the records and correct the obituary.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.66.222 (talk • contribs).

Please note this article is about Telectronics and this talk page is to discuss the article - Trainor's departure from any firm is not part of this article. However I glean from the above comment that the Trainor obituary's authority as a reliable source is also being called into question. I don't believe it materially affects this article - there are several congruent sources of information that appear to support the assertions made.--Golden Wattle ^talk 18:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The Trainor obituary's authority as a reliable source, while not being very relevant to the article as said by Golden Wattle, is supported by 'The Australian Director' Dec.1998, page 14, " Paul Trainor, armed with a vision and a business formula founded Nucleus in 1965....." Further support is an essay by Dr. P. Verco in a collation of memoirs of P.M.Trainor (limited distribution), "In 1964 Paul gave notice of his intention to leave Watsons, with the idea of "having a crack at starting a company with A graders that would be internationally significant". [copy available on line]. Geoffrey Wickham 04:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How can an article writen by someone who was not with Telectronics about someone who was not with telectronics be credable for when telectronics went into pacing? Especially when it contradicts the Buletin articles and the memoirs of the founder and MD Noel Gray and his mate Geoff Wickham as published in the Buletin? (This is History after the event to glorify Trainor)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.168.0.20 (talk • contribs) 18 December 2006.

• The Bulletin article is not referenced in the article. If you wish to reference it, do so, in the proper form ie with <ref> tags and using the {{cite news}} template as follows:

<ref name = "BulletinMarch1973">{{cite news  | first=Brian | last= Hoad  
| url= <!--Bulletin articles dating back to 1973 are not online-->  | title=Keeping Pace  
| publisher= [[The Bulletin]]  | pages= ???  | date= 31 March 1973}}</ref>

• title is required, rest is optional - ie an online reference with an URL is not required.

This produces a reference that looks like: Hoad, Brian (31 March 1973). "Keeping Pace". The Bulletin. pp. ???.

It can be called on several times using the tag <ref name = "BulletinMarch1973"/> after the first citation.

As has already been pointed out several times on this talk page, Wikipedia relies on no original research and that all facts are verifiable through the citation of reliable sources. Hence the credibility of any assertion in this or any other article depends on the citation of a reliable source - no more, no less. --Golden Wattle ^talk 21:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC) Attacks on Noel Gray’s background and experience as told in Telectronics the Early Years

The attack on Noel Gray’s pacemaker patents on his Wickapedia page is another in a long line of personal attacks that began many years ago. In similar vein as in the early days at Telectronics staff and others were told that Gray didn’t study medicine at the University of Sydney and that he was a simple “TV repair man.” Well this man is one of the first people in the pacemaker industry to have identified the deleterious consequences to cardiac function caused by pacing from the right ventricular apex. Quite an achievement for an alleged simple “TV repair man,” don’t you think. Not really, but the result of many years of study of medicine and medical papers and research performed when he was at Telectronics.

Chronic pacing the right ventricular apex is now widely regarded as having such deleterious consequences as the development of heart failure and death. It is interesting to note that in Mr Wickham and Mr Jeffcoat’s unpublished story held by the University of Melbourne they clearly state that this site was regarded by them as the most beneficial pacing site and that they always preferred pacing the right ventricular apex. In the light of current knowledge it is intriguing to wonder how they came to this conclusion.

The alleged history story on the public access dictionary, Wickapedia, that Mr Jeffcoat and Dr Nicks introduced pacemakers to Telectronics is calculated to destroy Noel Gray’s reputation further by adding that before these two gentlemen came along Telectronics was destined to make only industrial electronics. I don’t know just what these two gentlemen were told at the time, but I am sure that they were not told that Noel Gray had already started working on pacemakers (based on research in 1949 at university and on developments here and overseas of an emerging market for implantable pacemakers since 1960) and medical electronics at Telectronics. Nor that he had a long-held vision for the company to do just that from before incorporation in 1963. The company was planed but money is required as start-up capital and this was not available for such an ambitious venture in Australia in the 60s. Mr Gray chose to earn money for capital by hard work starting and building up his television and scientific instrument repair business, Television Electronic Services. Indeed the profit from this business in 1963, of some £2,000 was the start-up capital for Telectronics Pty Limited when he incorporated it that year. (Veritas) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.164.10.231 (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The preceeding unsigned edit is identical in text to an edit by the same IP address to Talk:Noel Desmond Gray on 23 October 2007 which was responded to by User:Wildhartlivie on 23 October 2007 and User:Euryalus on 9 November 2007. QRS|QRS 01:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by QRS (talk • contribs)