Jump to content

Talk:Terence Trent D'Arby

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What's Yer Name?[edit]

Any information on why D'Arby changed his name? —Frecklefoot 19:09, 29 Aug 2003 (UTC) This is a valid question, save your insults on the singer for somewhere else. Trolls. --Tessie xo (talk) 01:38, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sananda Maitreya does not mean "rebirth" in Sanskrit. Sananda means "happiness" and maitreya means "love". This article (perhaps due to Maitreya's own misunderstanding, granted) misunderstands maybe Sanskrit, not being his language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2407:7000:9C3D:4800:457E:BC7F:9A4C:189C (talk) 22:54, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Letting Go[edit]

A song of his by the name of Letting Go was used in the movie The Fan, it was the most consistentley used song in the movie and the first song to play as the credits roll. 18:37, 27 September 2006 User:69.203.202.10

Nomenclature[edit]

The article used the subject's names a little inconsistently. The article should probably proceed in one of two ways: a) use his current name throughout, or b) use the name he used at the time of the incident under discussion. I changed a few things to bring the article largely in compliance with option a), which was how the large majority of the article had already been written, and which I think is probably best. DCB4W 02:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Youtube-Channel[edit]

When following the link to that channel, one gets the message "This account is suspended."--213.168.111.135 (talk) 09:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was  Done –Juliancolton | Talk 02:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sananda Maitreya → Terence Trent D'Arby — This is the name under which he is best known. As per WP:COMMONNAME, it is the most commonly used name that should be used for the title. It is the same situation as with the Cat Stevens article, where the title uses his best known name, not his current name (Yusuf Islam). Vanjagenije (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Goggle News shows many more hits for Terence Trent D'Arby[1] than Sananda Maitreya[2]. As does Google Books[3] [4]. dissolvetalk 23:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Reads like a gushing review![edit]

"The collection of songs was then compiled into "WIlDCARD" a fantastic album that was released by the artist independently in 2002 and got international reviews and massive radio airplay" - Massive radio airplay? Did it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.178.34.187 (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This Page is Sheer Puffery[edit]

What a horrible page; this reads like pure promotion. I lived through the 80's, bought his record the first week like everyone else and played it to death. I also remember that much controversy surrounded him, and that he popularly is known to have completely fallen of the proverbial map. Practically speaking, no one has paid this guy any attention for 20 years, though you would have no idea by this sheer piece of puffery.Tao2911 (talk) 02:46, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

The naming consistency in this article is wrong. In the Muhammad Ali article, for instance, everything that that Ali achieved under the name Clay is attributed to Clay; there's no attempt at revisionism. This article is full of it. My copy of Introducing the hardline does not credit Sananda Francesco Maitreya anywhere and yet it is his debut album? Everything prior to the artist's renaming should be accredited to their legal or professional title at the time, not to something subsequent - particularly when it relates to someone whose latter identity is far less recognised than that which they held at the time. danno 01:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thoroughly agree - got very confused as to when he had changed his name!93.96.148.42 (talk) 01:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Based on these comments, I have now rectified the glaring misrepresentation and confusion that follows by universally attributing everything to Maitreya. AS you rightly point out, everything done as D'Arby should be attributed under that name. If I missed a note here or there, feel free to correct it. werldwayd (talk) 10:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good Source for personal life[edit]

Here is a good source for the missing material in personal life - http://www.sanandamaitreya.com/interviews/Qmagazine.html93.96.148.42 (talk)

That's not actually a good source as it is a primary source. QuiteUnusual (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism[edit]

I deleted the following:

In 2006, during a visit to Twycross Zoo, Maitreya developed an irrational fear of monkeys which has left him with an obscure condition in which he will break wind uncontrollably for several minutes at the sight of anything resembling one.

Common sense says this is vandalism but I did a Yahoo binge to see if it had a shred of credibility and it did not. Wikipedia is the only source of this "obscure condition". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.34.9.236 (talk) 04:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sananda Maitreya[edit]

Hello, this page title should be renamed into Sananda Maitreya to follow the evolution of the artist. In fact all the old discography from Introducing The Hardline onwards, has been renamed from Terence Trent D’Arby to Sananda Maitreya by Sony Music. If you Google anywhere it says Sananda Maitreya, included all streaming music services, such as Apple Music or Spotify.

If someone googles Terence Trent D’Arby it should be redirected to this page that should have only Sananda Maitreya in the title How is possible to make this happen in early December 2022 ? Thank you!

Thanks 151.18.187.2 (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't. See WP:COMMONNAME and the section on this page above - Roxy the dog 16:41, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
correct, although I see that the thread with this discussion is from 2009 and soon we will be in 2023. Lots of time has passed since!
I do see lots of progress has been done on the new name recognition, which should be acknowledged on this page too.
Martyn Ware has published in July 2022 an autobiographical book with Sananda Maitreya's name in the back cover, just to make one of the many vairous recent examples. Rockforlife (talk) 09:30, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So what? The name change is well covered in the article, it isn't our fault that people know him as TTD. Just to be clear, you seem not to have read the article, perhaps you should. - Roxy the dog 11:10, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He wants to be addressed by his name, and you say "so what?"
I then ask you: Who has the right to decide, the artist or us contributors (who are supposed to appreciate and respect his evolution btw..) ..just asking?
and what is the arm to have the 2 names reverted, will you forget who he was? I don't think so.
thanks for reading anyway. Rockforlife (talk) 08:12, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is an encyclopaedia, not his social media profile. Name changes here are subject to Wikipedia's policies. Cat Stevens for example, remains at his old name; Muhammad Ali for example, uses his newer name. Even in that, he is repeatedly referred to as "Clausius Clay" up until the point he legally changed name. It all depends on which name the concerned person has gotten more coverage from reliable sources. See WP:COMMONNAME to learn what are constitutes a common name and how to prove that one name is the common name over another. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:48, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The request is to make the page title and URL reflect this person's right to personal identity, their personality right with Sananda Maitreya as their main identity, and put in place a redirect from his previous common name Terence Trent D'Arby to his now chosen name Sananda Maitreya. There are verifiable articles which document his new identity The Guardian Classic Pop, and digital music platforms for his music also reflect this. "Apple Music". "Spotify".. It's probably a good time to respect this person's wishes so if there is anyone who can support and help with granting this move request, you'd be doing a good deed for someone who's been waiting since, as a previous contributor mentioned, 2009. Mark Hiscox (talk) 16:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Approve.
I do agree with @Mark Hiscox
This request is to make the page title and URL reflect this person's own right to personal identity which is Sananda Maitreya !
I approve this change and would like to know how shall we reopen this case, who decides? @CX Zoom are you the official administrator of this page,
do you have the power to please proceed with this page renaming request?
BTW There is an encyclopedia of rock called "il dizionario del pop-rock" by Zanichelli where all of his career is portrayed under the name "Sananda Maitreya"
and at the "Terence Trent D'Arby" section it is written: please go to "Sananda Maitreya".
It WIKIPEDIA is a free encyclopedia, can we have the page renamed as well? Rockforlife (talk) 13:34, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See Prince. - Roxy the dog 13:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point about Prince, but his name changes are described as pseudonyms that he used in various stages of his career for various purposes, so I don't think this example applies in this instance. Perhaps a better example would be for Wendy Carlos which is their name change after gender reassignment, with their pre-change name Walter Carlos as a redirection to their chosen name. There is a similar case example for Philippa York with redirect from Robert Millar. In Sananda Maitreya's case, the verifiable article in The Guardian documents the nervous breakdown which triggered his identity change, and for this reason I would approve the page move and redirect as requested. Mark Hiscox (talk) 14:40, 13 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Approve. thanks Mark, in fact this will really be fair to the artist, I believe. Could you then proceed with the page move? Rockforlife (talk) 08:35, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are kidding, right? - Roxy the dog 10:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, you both have the technical ability to move pages, but there is a consensus to the contrary. Do what you want but you'll be reverted and page will be move-protected. The easiest way to get done what you are asking for would be to show that reliable sources regularly call him by his newly adopted name, instead of the former one. Read also Template:Not a ballot. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 13:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
we're actually 2 people voting for YES and 2 people voting for the NO !
Who has the right to decide?
thanks x Rockforlife (talk) 20:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The status quo ante. (But we really are not there yet). - Roxy the dog 22:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The status quo hic et nunc: which is Sananda Maitreya ! Rockforlife (talk) 07:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello CX Zoom, after almost 1 year I've just discovered that all the old albums covers have been renamed to Sananda Maitreya, on spotify, apple, youtube etc https://music.apple.com/us/album/introducing-the-hardline-according-to-sananda-maitreya/250551726
Could we consider this a reliable source to now ask for a page rename from Terence Trent D'Arby to Sananda Maitreya? I don't have the capability to do it, but I believe that this could be a useful update for the wikipedia community. Rockforlife (talk) 15:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Rockforlife - can we please revisit this decision? The artist's entire back catalogue has been consistently renamed across all major streaming services to reflect his current name. That's a pretty unprecedented step in the music industry as far as I'm aware, so that makes this situation somewhat unique. All of his media appearances etc for decades use the new name also.
It seems perverse that Wikipedia continues to primarily refer to the old name, primarily because that was his name at the time of his greatest commercial success. We don't really know that for certain; since Sananda went independent decades ago we don't really know how much his recent music has sold compared to his early works. Anyone who HAS bought his new music or been to his concert in the past 25 years knows him as Sananda Maitreya.
I assert that Terence Trent D'arby should redirect to Sananda Maitreya rather than the other way around. Same goes for his discography page - the majority of the records listed on that page were recorded by Sananda Maitreya. The prior name has not been used professionally for decades, and that is reflected in all major media sources, streaming services, record stores etc.
The comparisons made earlier to Mohammed Ali, or Cat Stevens don't really hold water imho. I would suggest a better comparison point might be someone who has changed name for deeply personal reasons (such as gender transition) and for whom the continued use of their old name carries trauma. This is very apparent in recent interviews w/ Sananda in the Guardian for example. If we can find a more sensitive way to present this kind of thing on Wikipedia (for example, see the pages for transgender people such as Caitlyn Jenner, Elliot Page etc) then surely we can do that for Sananda also. MzK11 (talk) 08:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 December 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - opposition to proposal, mostly per WP:COMMONNAME. Original nom (see link below) may also have some form of COI, but already blocked. (non-admin closure) Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 09:28, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Terence Trent D'Arby → Sananda Maitreya – Since April 2021 the whole discography has been renamed to Sananda Maitreya and it is correct that also wikipedia follows this worldwide update. Just as one of many examples please check the very first album Introducing The Hardline on Spotify and on Apple Music. Also please check the italian wikipedia page, which already reflects this. Rockforlife (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

nobody uses his old artistic name anymore.
Please check recent articles at Mu Magazine UK Rock 'n Load USA
Music Apple USA
Discog
Albumism
Jaxsta Rockforlife (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please read WP:COMMONNAME - Roxy the dog 06:18, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
information Administrator note There was a parallel discussion at WT:RM about this as well, in case anyone wants further background on the request and its rationale. Primefac (talk) 19:22, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Please also read the above section #Sananda Maitreya. —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 09:49, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Very clear common name. He was big in the 1980s and 1990s. Nobody knows who Sananda Maitreya is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. See Cat Stevens. Shwcz (talk) 15:52, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the Yusuf/ Cat Stevens example does not apply. Cat Stevens went back to his old artistic name and this is not the case with Sananda Maitreya.
    more references where only his new name is used, also when journalists talk about his past: here Rockforlife (talk) 07:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reviving the naming debate[edit]

Can we please revisit the decision regarding regarding the artist's name and how it is reflected on Wikipedia? It is my view that the main page should be named after Sananda Maitreya and refer to Terence Trent D'arby where appropriate, with a redirection for searching Terence Trent D'arby -> Sananda Maitreya.

There are some unique factors at play here which I'd like to call out.

Firstly as of 2024 the artist's entire back catalogue has been consistently renamed across all major streaming services to reflect his current name. Even album artwork has been edited to reflect the correct name. That's a pretty unprecedented step in the music industry as far as I'm aware, so that makes this situation somewhat unique. All of his media appearances etc for decades use the new name also, really since the mid and late 90s.

Secondly, it is apparent from recent press interviews (e.g. the Guardian) that Sananda associates his old name with a certain amount of personal trauma and mental anguish. It seems a little perverse that Wikipedia continues to primarily refer to the old name simply because that was his name at the height of his commercial success. We can't even say that for certain; since Sananda went independent decades ago we don't really know how much his more recent music has made compared to his early works. The entirely of his back catalogue is under the name Sananda Maitreya, and indeed the bulk of it (9 out of 13 studio albums) was only ever released under that name anyway. Anyone who HAS bought his new music or been to his concert in the past 25+ years knows him as Sananda Maitreya.

I assert again that Terence Trent D'arby should redirect to Sananda Maitreya rather than the other way around. Same goes for his discography page - the vast majority of the records listed on that page were recorded under the name Sananda Maitreya. His prior name has not been used professionally for decades, and in fact has now been erased from his back catalogue. This is reflected in all major media sources, streaming services, record stores etc.

The comparisons made previously here to Mohammed Ali, or Cat Stevens don't really fit. I would suggest a better comparison point might be someone who has changed name for deeply personal reasons (such as a gender transition) and for whom the continued use of their old name carries some anguish or personal trauma. If we can find a more sensitive way to present this kind of thing on Wikipedia (for example, see the pages for people such as Caitlyn Jenner, Elliot Page etc) then surely we can do that for Sananda also. No one who follows his music goes looking for Terence Trent D'arby in 2024.

I'd like to make this change, but I'd also like it to not be reverted. If anyone still feels very strongly about please speak up, let's try to reach a consensus on this asap.MzK11 (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 June 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per consensus. – robertsky (talk) 16:41, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terence Trent D'Arby → Sananda Maitreya – The artist changed his name to Sananda Maitreya in the mid-90s and has only used that name ever since. Since the previous time this move was considered, there have been some further developments; most notably the artist's entire back catalogue has been renamed and republished under his current name. His entire back catalogue is now only available under the name Sananda Maitreya, which I believe is an unprecedented move within the music industry. This is an unusual and unique situation which merits our reexamination. Comparisons to other artists who've made name changes (e.g. Cat Stevens) don't really apply here. Just to clarify, ALL music streaming services have had the early Terence Trent D'arby albums renamed as Sananda Maitreya albums, including modified album title and cover artwork too so arguably today Sananda Maitreya is the only and most common name for accessing his body of work. For example the first studio album is now only available under the name Introducing the Hardline According to Sananda Maitreya even on physical media. Additionally, the overwhelming majority of his career to date has been under the name Sananda Maitreya. Finally, it is clear from recent press interviews that the artist associates his early stage name with a certain amount of trauma, it seems anachronistic that Wikipedia would continue to display his early stage name as the primary page name. MzK11 (talk) 08:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Leaning opposed, as the nominator has cited no independent sources. Would most independent sources refer to him exclusively or primarily as Sananda Maitreya, without adding a prominent explanation that the person they are talking about is the person most people know as Terence Trent D'Arby? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your thoughts. Personally, I don't think that should be the sole criteria here, tho I will cite some examples below. There's other factors too such as time served under the newer name (30+ years!), the % of his body of work (9 out of 13 studio albums under the new name originally... but now all 13 albums are under the new name) and the fact that anyone going looking for his music or concert tickets today would HAVE to know him as Sananda Maitreya. Even if an interviewer refers to the historical name change, the fact remains that every interview over the past 25+ years has PRIMARILY referred to him as Sananda Maitreya, regardless of whether the name change aspect briefly getting an explanation.
    That's the key - we're not erasing Terence Trent D'arby if someone wants to search for him, that name should redirect to the Sananda Maitreya page, since the latter has been a much bigger part of his life and professional career, featuring as it does as his primary name in the vast majority of all interviews in the past 25 years and the only name referenced on his ENTIRE body of work as an artist.
    Similarly with the discography, the Wikipedia page for both the artist and his disography is no longer coherent with the music that is actually available in terms of naming etc, it's a bit of a mess. Not a good look when Wikipedia doesn't match up with reality, and the people who are motivated and trying to correct it keep getting knocked back.
    Furthermore:
    On both Spotify and Apple Music which are the two biggest music streaming platforms, he is only referred to as Sananda Maitreya, no further or prominent explanation as you say. e.g.
    https://music.apple.com/us/artist/sananda-maitreya/14708444
    https://open.spotify.com/search/sananda%20maitreya
    A quite recent interview in The Guardian did not feature any prominent explanation of the name change, but admittedly the name came up briefly mid-way through the piece inside one of the reader questions. See what you think:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/apr/05/sananda-maitreya-terence-trent-d-arby-i-hypnotised-myself-into-believing-i-was-a-genius
    Similarly in this precursor piece - the old name pops up in passing but not at the top and not in a prominent explanation form as you suggested:
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2024/mar/29/post-your-questions-for-sananda-maitreya
    Another recent independent video interview does mention the name change at all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKmLukBJJHM
    There are many interviews which do not refer to the name change at all, but even the ones that do rarely go beyond "... who was also known as Terence Trent D'arby in the 80s" or "who originally rose to fame in the 80s as Terence Trent D'arby"
    Two older examples which do not refer to the old name at all:
    https://godfriednevels.nl/project/interview-sananda-maitreya-english/
    https://www.stateofmind.it/2013/11/sananda-maitreya-interview/
    etc MzK11 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't care about Apple, Spotify, etc., as those are clearly not independent. Interviews are also somewhat borderline to me, since he may require use of his new name as a condition for granting the interview. More obscure sources are also less helpful, as that could indicate cherrypicking. Ideally I'd like to see more truly independent sourcing. But some of the new links provided around the end of the above comment are lessening my concerns. He seems to have a clear preference for his new name to be used. I would welcome other voices in this conversation. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, as I'm not seeing any evidence that independent reliable sources are now referring to him as Maitreya rather than D'Arby. He was at his commercial peak in the late 80s and early 90s using the Terence Trent D'Arby name, and his profile now is much lower as he appears to no longer ve signed to a record label or recording contract and just releases music on his own website. Consequently when he is referred to at all by mainstream sources, it is only in relation to his work as Terence Trent D'Arby. The fact that streaming services such as Apple Music and Spotify have acquiesced to his demands to erase the Terence Trent D'Arby name from history, even going so far as to rename the albums themselves, should have no relevance as they are not independent, as noted above.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Still overwhelmingly his WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. WP:BLP indicates that we should treat articles about living subjects with an appropriate degree of sensitivity. Whilst Maitreya doesn't fall under the letter of GENDERID — he is, by all accounts, a cisgender man – the 2017 Guardian interview indicates a deep discomfort with the D'Arby name that I think the spirit of the guideline – that, in certain cases, a change of name should be followed even if the new name isn't the most common – definitely applies here. This isn't a Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam example, where he's comfortable with his old stage name being used in association with his old work; this is more akin to Wendy Carlos reissuing the A Clockwork Orange soundtrack under her post-transition name. Sceptre (talk) 20:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Interesting to bring WP:DEADNAME into this, but that guideline strictly concerns gender identity. It should not be considered when it comes to this article. 162 etc. (talk) 21:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You might want to brush up on your comprehension skills. I said the spirit of the guideline applies, and arguably it does. If we agree that there are circumstances that dictate certain BLPs should be titled a certain way, then it's not unreasonable to ask if, when similar circumstances prevail, the rules should also apply similarly. After all, COMMONNAME even states When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. Maitreya has a strong aversion to his birth name to the point of dissociation, and has gone so far as to reissue his entire back catalogue under his new name. I daresay that counts as an instance where the most common has problems. Sceptre (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I fully comprehend your comment, and don't appreciate the snark. I disagree with it, because, if I can quote myself, "WP:DEADNAME (...) strictly concerns gender identity." It's a major exception to our usual rules and cannot be used out of context. 162 etc. (talk) 16:34, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The title of the article is a different issue than our respect for the biography subject to be called by their preferred name. We can respectfully name the person "Maitreya" throughout the article (this should be done immediately) but the title of the page is still cemented to WP:COMMONNAME. Binksternet (talk) 21:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 June 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Terence Trent D'Arby → Sananda Maitreya – I know this has been discussed at length but I believe we have relied too much on personal opinion and not enough on Wikipedia guidelines.

As per WP:COMMONNAME the page should be renamed to reflect the name under which the artist is now more commonly known, Sananda Maitreya. As per WP:NAMECHANGES we must also give extra weight to reliable sources (written after the name change) which routinely use the newer name of Sananda Maitreya, such that Wikipedia must follow suit.

My hope is to break our previous paralysis on this decision by referring more properly to Wikipedia guidelines. I believe that previous discussions on this topic have incorrectly followed these guidelines. Comments claiming to prioritise WP:COMMONNAME guidelines have not proven that the artist is more commonly known as Terence Trent D’arby, but more crucially also have not applied the (quite clear) guidance from WP:NAMECHANGES.

There’s also further risk here of incorrectly conflating the artist’s initial commercially successful peak period (and the name he used at that time) with the name he is currently mostly commonly known by. They aren’t the same thing at all.

Let’s direct our attention to WP:NAMECHANGES and paraphrase the guidelines:

Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match.

So, in order to correctly apply these guidelines from WP:NAMECHANGES we must give additional weight to reliable sources written since the change change occurred 30 years ago. Reading the guidelines carefully, it says that IF reliable sources written after the name change ROUTINELY USE the new name, Wikipedia should FOLLOW SUIT. It does not say that those sources may not ever refer to a prior name, merely that they must routinely use the new name (emphasis is mine, but helpful IMHO).

This is where we have to use our brains a little bit. ALL mainstream media articles and interviews from the past 20-30 years of this artist’s career have demonstrably, consistently and routinely used the newer name, Sananda Maitreya. He may or may not sell as many records as he did in the 80s (we don’t know, and it’s not a requirement) but that’s not the point. He may not be as famous now as he once was, that's not the point either. The point is that we must give weight to reliable resources which have routinely used his newer name. There is absolutely no shortage of these. Also, there is no requirement that those sources fully desist from mentioning his former name or the fact that there was a name change, it’s the name which is most routinely used that matters here.

Some examples of reliable sources, there really is a staggeringly large number of these:

Example: BBC News, 9th December 2020, by Mark Savage (BBC Music Reporter) In this BBC article, there is a brief mention of Sananda Maitreya.

Example: The Guardian, 5th October 2017, by Paul Lester (Guardian music journalist) In this article, the name Sananda Maitreya is routinely and consistently used. There is a reference to his former name as well, but the majority of the article refers to the newer name.

Example: The Guardian, 29th March 2024, by Laura Snapes (Guardian music journalist) In this article, the name Sananda Maitreya is routinely and consistently used as the primary name of the artist. There is a brief mention of his former name, but the bulk of the article uses his newer name,

Example: Classic Pop Magazine, 3rd December 2022, by John Drake (writer) In this article, the name Sananda Maitreya is routinely and consistently used. There is a brief mention of his old name, but the article primarily uses his new name.

Example: The Big Issue, 5th May 2024, by Jamie Atkins (music journalist) In this article, the name Sananda Maitreya is routinely and consistently used. There is a brief mention of his old name, but the article primarily uses his new name.


… and so on. There’s really no shortage of these, we can find dozens, possibly hundreds.

He may not be as much in the public eye as he was previously, since he’s now an independent artist working from Italy and at a different stage of his career, but as per Wikipedia guidelines on name changes, if we examine reliable independent sources published after his name change, they ALL routinely and consistently use the name Sananda Maitreya. The people who have been blocking this move in previous discussions may be well intended but they are not focusing on the right thing, and they are not enacting Wikipedia guidelines correctly. We must not get bogged down in whether Terence Trent D'arby is a more famous figure than Sananda Maitreya, or whether his brief period of early commercial success outweighs a 30 year subsequent career as an independent artist. These are distractions, and they are making it hard for Wikipedia to keep pace with the rest of public published discourse on this. We are obliged to rename this page, because all other reliable sources routinely use the newer name. The old name can redirect to here.

Furthermore, although not independent as sources, the renaming of the artist's back catalogue is completely unprecedented in the music industry and worthy of consideration. You simply can't find Terence Trent Darby on any mainstream music service anymore. We're not helping anyone by propping up the old name.

Honestly, this is not a controversial move, it never was. We’ve just missed the point a bit and failed to correct follow Wikipedia guidance on name changes. Let’s now put that right.

MzK11 (talk) 11:58, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • close this is an inappropriate reopening of something that was closed two weeks ago, take it up with WP:Move review—blindlynx 16:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree - it touches upon an aspect that has NOT been discussed yet. MzK11 (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and speedy close. We just had an RM on this, the community has spoken and a consensus was reached. 162 etc. (talk) 21:07, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On a faulty premise. Merits further discussion. MzK11 (talk) 21:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See WP:THREEOUTCOMES: "Not moved" means that "there is a positive consensus found, and that consensus is for the page to stay exactly where it is." Further, an editor "should probably not propose this move in the future until and unless circumstances change." You proposed this three weeks ago. No circumstances have changed since then. 162 etc. (talk) 21:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My position is that the early move request was closed prematurely - as you can see from my subsequent request, it wasn't discussed thoroughly. I'm happy to follow up with a move review if preferred, but I felt that this latest proposal includes points not yet discussed in depth.
    Sometimes groupthink produces incorrect outcomes. MzK11 (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    sure, but there was clear wp:Consensus in the last RM so reopening it against that is disruptive---regardless of your good intentions—blindlynx 23:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Certainly slightly disruptive, which I accept. But... never mind? Isn't it incumbent upon us to try and improve the quality of Wikipedia and stand up for it when mishandled?
    The last RM barely even got started as a discussion before it was shut down. I wonder if the hostility on here has more to do with being reminded of our failure to correctly apply Wikipedia guidelines, reaching a premature and incorrect outcome. Honestly it makes the site look really daft when we cannot take simple action to bring our site in sync with the majority of all reliable independent sources. It took me all of 2 minutes to assemble the list of sources above, I could easily provide another 20+ without much trouble. We messed up on this one folks, if you're not willing to engage with my points for reasons of protocol that's on you, but it says a great deal about why it is so hard to improve Wikipedia.
    I'll pursue a move review. MzK11 (talk) 06:47, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Terence_Trent_D%27Arby&oldid=1230769040"