Talk:Thalassa

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Source and gods[edit]

Who said "Sometimes, she was thought of as the mother of Aphrodite with Uranus or with Zeus"? A source is needed.

How is the co-existence of Thalassa and Pontus justified or explained in Greek mythology? Thalassa and Pontus are both sea gods. I don't see the reason behind taking the same role.

ICE77 (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2011 (UTC) There is also Nereus, Oceanus and Poseidon. Probably all were non-IE in origin. Mythology is not very systematic. I edited the text to address the issue of "sometimes, she was thought ...". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skamnelis (talk • contribs) 11:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite 2016[edit]

In rewriting the article, I addressed the 2014 tab that it was deficient in references. In going through these, it emerged that Thalassa is nowhere credited as the mother of Aphrodite, who was engendered from the seafoam, not specifically by this particular divinity. Once she was deleted, no figures were left that appeared in the family chart added in 2015. It was therefore irrelevant to the article, its footnotes particularly. The mention of Aesop's Fables was cursory as well as unreferenced and that deficiency has been addressed. Since they have been given greater notice, links can now be made to this article from the sites where the fables are listed. In addition, there is now a reliable reference to the figure's iconography and a more satisfactory illustration provided. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 14:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 8 April 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the pages, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 05:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

– 184 vs 17 average pageviews for this article versus the moon. It is the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for this name. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hyginus[edit]

A template was added by Michael Aurel referring to Hyginus as a primary source whereas, as a digest of mythological tales, it is the secondary source requested. In any case, an edit summary is not meant to take the place of discussion more properly belonging here per WP:ES. It has therefore been reverted. Sweetpool50 (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sweetpool50: Thankyou for bringing this to the talk page. I am responding several days late because you did not ping me (you wrote [[u|Michael Aurel]] rather than {{u|Michael Aurel}}).
You have brought up a few things, but the first, that Hyginus is a secondary source, is not the case. Your rationale for this assumption is that it is a "digest of mythological tales"; however, despite the nature of his Fabulae, Hyginus is the only ancient text that contains this parentage, and thus he is our primary source here. A secondary source would be a work written by a modern scholar (i.e. not an ancient source like Hyginus).
Secondly, I don't understand your removal of the "non-primary source needed" tag; I think the tag should be there, and in fact think that a secondary source is very much needed for that claim, if this article's to stay as it is. Hyginus' original passage is (two different translations):
Mary A. Grant's 1960 translation (Preface): "From Aether and Day, Earth, Heaven Sea."
Smith and Trzaskoma's newer 2007 translation (p. 95): "From Ether and Day came Earth, Sky, and Sea."
Hyginus refers to "Mare" (Sea), and despite what Theoi.com might say, we cannot make the assumption that Hyginus is referring to the Greek goddess Thalassa here; unless, of course, we have a secondary source saying that this is what Hyginus means, hence the tag. We, as editors, can present what primary sources say, but it isn't our place to interpret what they mean; this is the role of modern secondary sources. (And Theoi.com, by the way, is not a reliable source, and should not be used as the basis for any claims we’re making.) I see in your rewrite you added Hyginus as the source for the previously unsourced parentage. Though it is obvious that this is the "same" goddess, Hyginus is a Roman author; how do we know he is referring to the Greek goddess? I like the treatment of Hyginus' genealogy in articles such as Aether, Uranus, Gaia, Hemera and Dies: ... Aether and Dies were the parents of Terra (Earth), Caelus (Sky) and Mare (Sea) ...; ... in addition to Caelus, Aether and Dies were also the parents of Terra (Earth), and Mare (Sea).; ... Terra (Earth/Gaia), along with Caelus (Sky) and Mare (Sea), were the children of Aether and Dies (Hemera/Day).; ... in addition to Caelus, Aether and Dies were also the parents of Terra (Earth), and Mare (Sea). (the last one is the same at Hemera and Dies). At all five pages the Roman equivalents are named and linked rather than the Greek gods/goddesses (except for Dies obviously). And there is no secondary source given on any of these pages, but no secondary source is needed, as we are simply repeating what Hyginus says (once again we can give what primary sources say, but we can't interpret them). And to note, the page Hemera only contains this information in the "Roman counterpart Dies" section (i.e. it isn't about the Greek goddess Hemera). So the pages of 4 of the 5 deities mentioned by Hyginus in this passage here present it in this way; this page is the exception. My request for a secondary source was to verify that this is the Greek goddess Thalassa (the subject of this article) that Hyginus is referring to, rather than "Mare", which is what Hyginus says. As "Mare" does not have her own page, I am obviously not suggesting that this is deleted from the article, however it does need to be reworked. I particularly like the way it is presented at Uranus, where it made clear that the version Hyginus is giving is not for Uranus, but for Caelus, his Roman equivalent: In Roman mythology, Uranus' counterpart was Caelus (Sky). [Cicero's version] ... Hyginus says that, in addition to Caelus, Aether and Dies were also the parents of Terra (Earth), and Mare (Sea). I think it would be best if this article presents Hyginus in a similar manner.
You've also said: In any case, an edit summary is not meant to take the place of discussion more properly belonging here per WP:ES. I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Are you saying I should have made a proposal on the talk page to add a “non-primary source needed” tag? Even when the primary source itself does not refer to "Thalassa"? This seems a bit over the top to me; I hardly think my change was controversial.
Regarding my change to the short description, which apparently you considered "editorializing" (?), I think that Thalassa's consort is more vital information in a short few-word description of her than her parentage. You could very fairly disagree, though, and I don't mind if it's kept as it is currently, if you’d prefer it.
You also changed "Dies (Day)" back to "Hemera"; as I've said, as Hyginus is a Roman author writing in Latin, I do not see why we would link to the page of the Greek equivalent (Hemera), when Dies has her own page, which contains this information, and Hemera's page only contains it in the "Roman counterpart Dies" section. You also changed "Thalassa" to "Thallasa"? (pretty sure this is a typo).
– Michael Aurel (talk) 05:04, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Michael Aurel A digest of mythology cannot be a primary source in that it is dependent on prior knowledge; by WP's guideline it is a tertiary source. I'm also having difficulty in finding via Google Search the quotations you confidently assert; where I particularly need reassurance is that Hyginus used the name Mare in his genealogy to mean Sea.
I automatically distrust an editor who uses the phrase "I like" in making scholarly judgments.
You'll find under WP:SUMMARYNO the requirement to "Avoid long summaries. Edit summaries are not for explaining every detail, writing essays about "the truth", or long-winded arguments with fellow editors. For discussions, you should use the talk page."
I'm not convinced by your wall of text, which seems like a personal interpretation. I wouldn't object to a compromise statement like "Hyginus" summarizes in his Fabulae that..." without going into an off-topic essay about that author's reliability (which is available in the link if the reader wishes to know more). That would require only citation of the original Latin. Sweetpool50 (talk) 12:20, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sweetpool50: I fully agree that my above comment is oversized ;-) however I think this needs to be figured out.
Hyginus' original Latin is: "Ex Aethere et Die Terra Caelum Mare." (link) As you can see, "Mare" is what Hyginus refers to, and both of the translations quoted above translate this as "Sea". You've said what I'm suggesting seems like a personal interpretation; however, quite to the contrary, it is a simple restatement of what Hyginus himself says. Considering this to be "Thalassa", in contrast, is an interpretation of his words (which would require a secondary source). I know of no secondary source which interprets Hyginus this way, and as such I've suggested that we treat this genealogy the same way it is at Uranus (mythology), Aether (mythology), Gaia, Dies (deity) and Hemera (all of the other deities mentioned in the passage).
You've also said you cannot find the quotations I've given online. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, I linked both sources. The first was Mary Grant's 1960 translation, online at ToposText, and the second Smith and Trzaskoma's newer 2007 translation (Google Books). Both translate "Mare" as "Sea".
I used the phrase "I like" to make it clear that what I was saying was partly my opinion, as we are not following any secondary source here. I said "I like" the way it is presented at Uranus, Aether, Gaia, Dies and Hemera, as it seems to me to be more faithful to the original, rather than trying to interpret the passage. I said "I like" instead of simply stating it was "better", as I appreciate you could well disagree.
Also, my edit summaries were not overly long, nor were they trying to expound "the truth". My edit summary was:
"Secondary source is needed which says that the "Sea" Hyginus is referring to is Thalassa"
... and I've explained the reasoning for my change in my long-winded comment above.
(Also you cannot ping someone unless you sign in the same edit.) – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Michael Aurel, thanks for the link to the Latin. I believe your reasoning on this matter is false, however. Other words for large bodies of salty water were taken from Greek into Latin and made mythical figures, and appear as such in Hyginus: Ὠκεανός/Oceanus; Πόντος/Pontus; and ultimately Θάλασσα/Thalassa, but not apparently in the time of Hyginus. However, the latter was the commonest Greek name for sea, while Mare was the commonest in Latin. I don't therefore see any difficulty in making the assumption that it was of Θάλασσα (conceived of as the aetiological Sea) that Hyginus was speaking. If you like we can ask the knowledgeable Paul August if he knows when the anthropomorphic concept of Thalassa entered Latin sources. Alternatively, we could agree to modify the wording of her article to "Gaius Julius Hyginus described her - simply calling her Sea (Mare) - in the preface..." and use the Latin link you supplied. That would cover most bases. Sweetpool50 (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sweetpool50: While I don't entirely disagree with you on your first suggestion, it seems a little speculative. Making such an assumption would, in my eyes, require a secondary source (hence my original tag). In my view, it would make more sense, when we don't have a secondary source, to present it in a manner that isn't trying to interpret what Hyginus says or make any assumptions, but rather restates what he says himself (and is consistent with all the other pages). Your second suggestion, though, seems to be more along these lines, and I wouldn't have a problem presenting it in that way (or something similar). – Michael Aurel (talk) 21:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm glad you mentioned asking Paul, too, I'm sure he'll help us figure this out. (@Paul August:) Michael Aurel (talk) 21:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sweetpool50 and Michael Aurel: Hi guys ;-) I don't know when the Romans first conceived of the sea anthropomorphicly, but I presume it predates written history. It is quite plausible that Hyginus would have identified Mare with the Greek Thalassa, but that is for reliable secondary sources to tell us, we can't assert this without such. And in fact, there were other Greek sea goddesses whom Hyginus might have identified with Mare instead, in particular Thethys. Given the sources we have at hand, the only thing we are allowed to assert is that, according to Hyginus, Mare (Sea) was the daughter of Aether and Dies (Day), for which, the above mentioned translations of Hyginus are perfectly satisfactory as reliable sources. Paul August ☎ 12:51, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul August and Michael Aurel: Thx for that; we were also wondering whether you know at what date Romans/Latin writers began to use the actual name Thalassa for the goddess of the sea. Sweetpool50 (talk) 15:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sweetpool50: I don't know that Romans/Latin writers ever used the name "Thalassa" for "the" goddess of the sea, as far as I know that was always Mare. However, I'm sure they were aware of all the various Greek names for goddesses of the sea including Thalassa, Tethys, Themis, Thetis etc. Paul August ☎ 15:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other parts of the article[edit]

@Sweetpool50: I will wait for Paul's response in regard to our treatment of Hyginus, but I would also like to ask about the rest of the article. I'm asking here rather than simply changing the article per your above comments. I've numbered each comment for ease of replying.

1. In the article we state:

Some rare sources also attribute to her the sea-nymph Halia and the goddess Aphrodite after the severed member of Ouranos was cast into the sea.

The former statement is sourced to Diodorus Siculus, the phrase in question being:

... Halia, the sister of the Telchines ...

Thalassa being the mother of Halia here is based upon the statement earlier in the passage:

The island which is called Rhodes was first inhabited by the people who were known as Telchines; these were children of Thalatta ...

I don't see why we'd mention Halia but not the Telchines, then. I also think it would be better if we phrase it as "According to Diodorus Siculus" or something such as that, rather than calling him "some rare source".

2. The latter statement in the above sentence is sourced to (in addition to Nonnus) the 22nd Orphic Hymn, "to the Sea". The hymn states:

I call upon grey-eyed Tethys,
  bride of Okeanos,
[lines 2–6]
Mother of Kypris,
  mother of dark clouds, ...

I haven't added a "non-primary sources needed" tag, considering the above discussion, but a source is needed for us to claim that in that OH "she's equated with Tethys". For the record, I'm not saying I think that what we're saying is incorrect, it just needs a source, as neither the translation nor the notes to the hymn in Athanassakis and Wolkow give any indication that Thalassa is equated with Tethys here (Athanassakis and Wolkow doesn't seem to mention Thalassa at all). I will check Morand, though, and see what she says.

3. Regarding the Nonnus cite on the same statement, the relevant passage seems to be:

... when he [Cronos] cut off his father's male plowshare, and sowed the teeming deep with seed on the unsown back of the daughterbegetting sea ...

Once again, I can't exactly see that we can be certain from this that Nonnus is saying that Thalassa is the mother of Aphrodite, as he only says "daughterbegetting sea", which I'm not sure we can necessarily assume means Thalassa.

4. The literature section is fine, though the sourcing could be cleaned up a little.

5. The iconography section (currently entitled "Art") is at the moment cited only to an article "Tethys and Thalassa in mosaic art". This section should at least include sourcing to Thalassa's entry in the LIMC, written by one Herbert A. Cahn (VIII.1 pp. 1198–9), and preferably some cites to specific LIMC monuments (of which there are 15).

6. Also, the I'm not sure these sentences quite make sense in their current position and arrangement:

Fables were devoted to her by Aesop and she was to be depicted in both artistic and literary works during the Common Era. Thallasa's name may be of Pre-Greek origin.

7. Regarding something that could be added to article, Ion of Chios fr. 741 PMG calls Thalassa the mother of Aegaeon. And, for clarity, he refers to Thalassa explicitly (rather than just "the sea" or something along those lines). The BNJ commentaries on 3 F43 and 424 F5 mention this version, and Gantz also touches on the same fragment, but it seems doesn't mention the part pertinent to Thalassa.

Paul, considering you wrote the articles on Tethys and the Hecatoncheires, do you have any comments?

– Michael Aurel (talk) 08:05, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My chief part in the article, apart from a few possible cosmetic changes, was adding the Literature section. Why don't you draft a rewrite of the section you'd like expanded and put it in your sandbox until we're all happy? Sweetpool50 (talk) 12:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I generally agree with all the points mentioned by Michael above. A draft would be fine, but I don't really see the need. I think it would be more efficient for Michael to just go ahead and make what ever changes he thinks appropriate. And if anyone sees any issues we can address them as they come up. Paul August ☎ 13:03, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou Paul for your comments and thankyou Sweetpool for your cooperation. The literature section seems fine, so I'll go ahead and make changes elsewhere where I think they're needed. – Michael Aurel (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orphic Hymn 22 to the Sea[edit]

@Michael Aurel: Athanassakis and Wolkow, p. 114:

22. To the Sea
Sea is here identified with the Titaness Tethys, the wife of Okeanos. ...

I'm assuming that the Greek text has Θάλασσα, but I can't easily verify that at the moment. Paul August ☎ 12:58, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Paul August: Oh, I see what you mean. However, the Greek text doesn't have "Θάλασσα". Morand quotes the first line of the hymn (pp. 332, 338), but the text doesn't seem to copy and paste correctly from the version I've got (I'll see if I can find a link to an accessible version).
Regarding the other cites, Morand has, at p. 338, a table of deities equivalent in the Orphic Hymns. In it, Thalassa and Tethys are put together with the first line of the hymn quoted. At p. 332, there is a small genealogy chart with Thalassa (and Tethys in brackets) drawn as the mother of Kypris. – Michael Aurel (talk) 05:56, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does this give a preview of some sort? (the line is quoted on p. 309). – Michael Aurel (talk) 06:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've found this version of the Greek text:

22. Τηθύος, θυμίαμα, λιβανομάνναν.

Ὠκεανοῦ καλέω νύμφην γλαυκώπιδα Τηθύν,
κυανόπεπλον ἄνασσαν, ἐΰτροχα κυμαίνουσαν,
αὔραις ἡδυπνόοισι πατασσομένην περὶ γαῖαν.
θραύουσ’ αἰγιαλοῖσι πέτρηισί τε κύματα μακρά,
εὐδινοῖς ἁπαλοῖσι γαληνιόωσα δρόμοισιν,
νηυσὶν ἀγαλλομένη, θηροτρόφος, ὑγροκέλευθε·
μήτηρ μὲν Κύπριδος, μήτηρ νεφέων ἐρεβεννῶν,
καὶ πάσης πηγῆς νυμφέων νασμοῖσι βρυούσης·
κλῦθί μου, ὦ πολύσεμνε, καὶ εὐμενέουσ’ ἐπαρήγοις,
εὐθυδρόμοις οὖρον νηυσὶν πέμπουσα, μάκαιρα.

So no Θάλασσα! According to the website this is not exactly the same text used by Athanassakis's 1977 Orphic Hymns (Wilhelm Quandt's 1955) which was also used (supplemented by Gabriella Ricciardelli's 2000 text) for Athanassakis and Wolkow's 2013 The Orphic Hymns. But I don't think we can assume that the name Thallasa appears any text. Paul August ☎ 16:32, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox?[edit]

The infobox, with the recent changes, no longer really reflects the article. The information in the "Parents", "Siblings" and "Consort" fields are attributed to Mare (and not necessarily the Greek Thalassa) in the article, while the information in the "Other names" and "Abode" fields don't seem particularly valuable. I would tentatively suggest that the article would be better off without an infobox. Adverse opinions, or suggestions on how it could be reworked are welcome, though. – Michael Aurel (talk) 10:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Paul August ☎ 13:11, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it. – Michael Aurel (talk) 22:25, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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