Talk:The Doctrine of Fascism

2 Mussolini articles in 1932 Encyclopedia Italiana?

There are 2 documents by Mussolini that are claimed to be originally found in the 1932 Encyclopedia Italiana. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html and http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm

The short one has a lot of ellipses, so I assume it is only excerpts from a longer document. Unless the editor Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini wanted it that way. If one searches for the "doctrine of pacifism" in both articles it can only be found in the short article. So maybe the short article is not an excerpt of the longer article? Or maybe both Mussolini articles were in the Encyclopedia Italiana? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enciclopedia_Italiana

I have a photocopy of the original text on fascism from the 1932 Encyclopedia Italiana. I will double check, but I believe there is only one very long artilce with lots of photos. I think both online documents are subsets of the long original article, with some different material selected. There is an English version of the Doctrine of Fascism published in Italy in the 1930s, I will also check that.--Cberlet 17:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is the problem, there are several versions of the text. Some are translated later directly from the Encyclopedia text, some come from an official Italian translation in English from 1935 (Benito Mussolini, 1935, The Doctrine of Fascism, Firenze: Vallecchi Editore), and there is a third version with repeated text and new text (Benito Mussolini, 1935, Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions, Rome: 'Ardita' Publishers). All are slightly different. The www.worldfuturefund version is from the 'Ardita' book.

Fascism Doctrine and Institutions:

"First of all, as regards the future development of mankind, and quite apart from all present political considerations. Fascism does not, generally speaking, believe in the possibility or utility of perpetual peace. It therefore discards pacifism as a cloak for cowardly supine renuncia­tion in contradistinction to self-sacrifice. War alone keys up all human energies to their maximum tension and sets the seal of nobility on those peoples who have the courage to face it."

The Doctrine of Fascism:

"Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it."

Same text -- different translations.--Cberlet 17:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. Then the text at http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html must be just a very few excerpts from The Doctrine of Fascism, Firenze: Vallecchi Editore, 1935. Since this is the translation used at that link:

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it.

So far as I know, then that means there is only one complete article (translated in English) online written by Mussolini. Not counting the 2 searchable autobiographies combined in one book at Google books: http://books.google.com/books?q=mussolini+%22my+autobiography%22& - Click on the result titled "My Rise and Fall" (usually the top result). Then use the search form in the left column titled "search within this book."

So to summarize: The complete article in English is at http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm and it is Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions, by Benito Mussolini, 1935, 'Ardita' Publishers, Rome. And it is a translation of the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana article combined with new text. --Timeshifter 23:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I added some of this discussion info to here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enciclopedia_Italiana

I do not think that worldfuturefund has posted the full article, despite their claim. Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions is a compliation of essays as I recall. I will check. I think The Doctrine of Fascism has the full text in English, from which some have pulled paragraphs to post on the Internet. Please be wary of assuming all research begins and ends on the Internet, and accepting every claim on a website on face value.--Cberlet 14:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It is an official fascist publication, and they list the page numbers that they put on the web. So I believe it is from Mussolini since the publication says so. But the part about it being from the Enciclopedia Italiana was an assumption on your part due to the paragraphs being the same. I will take that assumption out of the references on various Wikipedia pages.

You have photocopies of the original article from the 1932 Encyclopedia Italiana. Do you know enough Italian to figure out the title of the article? Was it just "fascismo" as this library reference page indicates: http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/libguide/ency/34.html --Timeshifter 04:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

It would be really nice if you stopped confusing Internet searches with actual research.--Cberlet 04:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't help it if you are a print-age dinosaur. My internet search just found another English translation of the Enciclopedia Italiana article: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=7683344&type=book - My question to you is whether this article is under the heading "Fascism" in the encyclopedia, and are there other articles on fascism in the encyclopedia? This latest source titles the Mussolini article "The Doctrine of Fascism." Maybe you can compare the paragraph on pacifism and see if it is a third English translation. There is a search engine on that new source page for the article. Can you handle the search there? I can teach you how. Type in "pacifism" in the search box there. Then click "find in book"

It is a third translation. Here is that pacifism part previously compared in other translations:

"As far as the general future and development of humanity is concerned, and apart from any mere consideration of current politics, Fascism above all does not believe either in the possibility or utility of universal peace. It therefore rejects the pacifism which masks surrender and cowardice. War alone brings all human energies to their highest tension and sets a seal of nobility on the peoples who have the virtue to face it."

From the first page of this 1933 translation:

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=7683344&type=book

THE DOCTRINE OF FASCISM

By BENITO MUSSOLINI

From the ENCICLOPEDIA ITALIANA, Vol. XIV

The English translation of the "Fundamental Ideas" is by Mr. I. S. Munro, reprinted by his kind permission from "Fascism to World-Power" ( Alexander Maclehose, London, 1933).

FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS.

1 Philosophic Conception.

Like every concrete political conception, Fascism is thought and action. It is action with an inherent doctrine which, arising out of a given system of historic forces, is inserted in it and works on it from within. It has therefore a form co-related to the contingencies of time and place; but it has at the same time an ideal content which elevates it into a formula of truth in the higher region of the history of thought.

Here below, for comparison purposes, is the first paragraph of the other "complete" online text of the article:

Like all sound political conceptions, Fascism is action and it is thought; action in which doctrine is immanent, and doctrine arising from a given system of historical forces in which it is inserted, and working on them from within (1). It has therefore a form correlated to contingencies of time and space; but it has also an ideal content which makes it an expression of truth in the higher region of the history of thought (2).

So, at least they start the same. --Timeshifter 05:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Just found a 4th translation online. It answers what heading it was under. It is not one of the other translations.--Timeshifter 06:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=99690313&type=book

Foundations and Doctrine of Fascism (1932)

Benito Mussolini (in collaboration with Giovanni Gentile)

The entry that appeared under the heading of "Fascism" in Gentile's monumental Enciclopedia italiana consisted of Gioacchino Volpe's historical overview (see preceding text) and the following text, signed by Mussolini. Widely published, cited, and translated, the latter document was enshrined as Mussolini's official definition of fascism, even though it was largely based on Gentile's philosophical writings and coauthored by the philosopher. The first, more theoretical section was in fact drafted by Gentile, while the second part, concerned with fascism's conception of the state and nation, seems to have been directly penned by Mussolini, as were the annotations (keyed to letters in parentheses here), which contain excerpts from his speeches. See also the introduction to chapters 18 and 21.

I. Fascism's Fundamental Ideas

Like all sound political conceptions, fascism is action and it is thought: action in which doctrine is immanent, and doctrine arising from a given system of historical forces in which it inserts itself and works from within (A). It is, therefore, informed by contingencies of time and space, but it retains an ideal content that makes it an expression of truth in the higher region of the history of thought (B).

Volpe article in Fascism section of Enciclopedia Italiana?

Did you photocopy the Volpe article also? And did you photocopy the appendix that Mussolini wrote? What exactly is on pages 852 through 884 of the Fascism section?

From the 4th translation:

The first, more theoretical section was in fact drafted by Gentile, while the second part, concerned with fascism's conception of the state and nation, seems to have been directly penned by Mussolini, as were the annotations (keyed to letters in parentheses here), which contain excerpts from his speeches.

You (CBerlet) wrote:

The Doctrine of Fascism is a seminal essay signed by Mussolini and officially attributed to him, although it was most likely written by Giovanni Gentile. It was first published in the Enciclopedia Italiana of 1932, as the first section of a lengthy entry on "Fascismo" (Fascism). The entire entry on Fascism spans pages 847-884 of the Enciclopedia Italiana, and includes numerous photographs and graphic images. ...

The Mussolini entry starts on page 847 and ends on 851 with the credit line "Benito Mussolini." All subsequent translations of "The Doctrine of Fascism" are from this work.

The 4th translation I found (chapter 5 in the 2000 book "A Primer of Italian Fascism") says: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=99690313&type=book

The entry that appeared under the heading of "Fascism" in Gentile's monumental Enciclopedia italiana consisted of Gioacchino Volpe's historical overview (see preceding text) and the following text, signed by Mussolini.

There is a menu link to the left that will show the table of contents of that book containing the 4th translation of the Mussolini article, and the Volpe article ("History of the Fascist Movement"). Or here is a direct link to that table of contents: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=99690246

And here is a direct link to the Volpe article (chapter 4 in that 2000 book "A Primer of Italian Fascism"): http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=99690286&type=book

Maybe you can compare the first paragraph in each of those articles in the Fascism section of the Enciclopedia Italiana with the first paragraph in your photocopies, and see how it all lines up. See if you also photocopied the Volpe article. There is a rough online translator for text at Google that may help: http://www.google.com/language_tools

The translation with the complete text has the appendix that Mussolini wrote: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm --Timeshifter 06:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I photocopied the entire text of the entry on Fascism in the Encyclo. Ital. 1932. It starts with the Mussolini essay, and is followed by the much larger Volpe history. All of the translations and translation fragments I have seen line up to the text in Italian. I read Spanish, but not Italian, but I can see that the wording reflects the same material. I will look at some of the new material you found. I suspect we will end up with a rather definitive collection here. :-) I also have other English translations from a variety of print sources. Is there something you are trying to research or find? Also, please do not refer to translations by numbers, just source names, since the numbers imply an order. --Cberlet 13:40, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. The main questions I have now are about Mussolini's footnote appendix section in Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions put out by 'Ardita' Publishers. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm ~ Do you see that appendix in your photocopies of the Enciclopedia Italiana? What pages is the appendix on in the photocopies? What page does the Volpe article start on in your photocopies? I assume the Mussolini footnote appendix is just before it.

Please stop making wild assumptions based on website claims. I have already answered all these questions on the page. I am not a research service. The Volpe article is most of the encyclopedia entry on fascism, save the first essay by Mussolini. Just before the bibliography by Volpe, there is a section titled "Realizzazionia del Fscismo," credited to "A. Marp." Pages 878-884. Most of page 884 is the bibliography by Volpe, which ends the article. Most of page 878 is the previous section by Volpe. I cannot find any other sections, and certainly there is no appendix by Mussolini. Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions put out by 'Ardita' Publishers is a compilation that includes much material not in the encyclopedia. Get a library card.--Cberlet 19:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I made no assumption, O print dinosaur. I asked a question. I have several library cards. Unlike you I also know how to use the internet for research. Which is how I found several complete translations of the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana article online. Something you were not able to do. One of those translations (1935) also has a footnote appendix claimed to be written by Mussolini. So since you say that there are no footnotes for the Mussolini article in your photocopies, then that means those footnotes were added later for that 1935 publication. Are the footnotes possibly at the end of that volume 14 of 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana, and not in the Fascism section? Are there footnote numbers in the text of the Mussolini article. If there are no footnote numbers then there can be no numbered footnotes. These are questions people would want to know. Get a grip. Lighten up. Neither of us could have figured all this out by ourselves. --Timeshifter 08:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. I rechecked. Of the 3 complete translations online 2 have footnote numbers or letters. I haven't yet checked the last pages of the footnoted Questia.com translation to see if it has the actual footnotes too. I will try to check. Questia.com can be difficult to use.

So I guess this settles it. The 1933 complete translation does not have the footnote numbers or letters in the first page here: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=7683344&type=book - nor are there footnotes at the end of the translation.

The other Questia.com translation has both footnote letters and the actual footnotes at the end of the article. http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=refresh&docId=99690313&type=book

That translation is a chapter in a BOOK, O print dinosaur, and it has this to say about who may have written what:

The entry that appeared under the heading of "Fascism" in Gentile's monumental Enciclopedia italiana consisted of Gioacchino Volpe's historical overview (see preceding text) and the following text, signed by Mussolini. Widely published, cited, and translated, the latter document was enshrined as Mussolini's official definition of fascism, even though it was largely based on Gentile's philosophical writings and coauthored by the philosopher. The first, more theoretical section was in fact drafted by Gentile, while the second part, concerned with fascism's conception of the state and nation, seems to have been directly penned by Mussolini, as were the annotations (keyed to letters in parentheses here), which contain excerpts from his speeches.

So the footnotes were added for the 1935 translation.

I will clarify all this in the links for the Wikipedia page. --Timeshifter 09:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Clarify what? You are confusing and conflating material from an encyclopedia, a large booklet, and several books, as well as multiple translations. I have photocopies sitting in front of me, and yet you insist that Internet research is more accurate. Hopeless. Questia is a fee-based system. I have no access to it--and neither will most readers. It is not a proper link, but could be a cite.--Cberlet 14:09, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't help it if you can't read. It is still text on both your screen and on your photocopies. I thoroughly explained everything already in the above discussion. It is not complicated. Footnotes and a footnote appendix were added for the 1935 translation. Get it? There is only one complete free translation online. The other 2 complete translations are at Questia.com and only show the first page of each chapter free, and that first page has been very helpful. And the Questia.com links should stay up as backup since the free translation could go down temporarily or permanently.

Without a search of print documents, it is not possible to simply assume that the footnotes were "added" for the 1935 translation. What if they were in a 1934 translation? Without comparing the encyclopedia entry to the later print documents, how do you know if any of the other claims are true, since the claims are ambiguous in some cases, and may actually conflict. I salut your work here, but you keep making sweeping claims about content based on fragmentary data...while print documents exist to sort it all out. You can say ther are "footnotes" in the 1935 translation, but you cannot in fairness say they were "added" in that translation. You have insufficient evidence to make that claim. In an encyclopedia, such details matter--Cberlet 16:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. And I salute your work too. I guess the footnote appendix should be described as "not found in the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana article by Mussolini." Since that is all we know for sure now between us. Maybe some readers of our rants and discussion here can tell us if they have found earlier translations than the 1935 one that contain the footnote appendix. And are there publications with the appendix in Italian earlier than 1935?

Quotation from Soames

Good morning</b I removed the quotation of Soames translation describing as Fascism as "Century of the left". There has been a lenghty discussion about this sentence, that one can find on the Archive 42 of the Fascism article discussion page. Feel free to readd the quotation in the form suggested by the discussion in archive. Moreover, I would like to notice that the introduced quotation was already in the lead (with correct meaning). Last but not least, this article deals with a work written in Italian. Therefore, authoritative for its interpretation is the italian original, not translations - authorised or not - in any language. Alex2006 (talk) 07:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Alex2006, there is a problem with your rationale. The photocopies of contemporary translations that you summarily reject (with not even a hint why) do exist and are easily available on the Internet (e.g., here: [1]), while the "italian [sic!] original" is apparently not. If you have it or saw it then, please, post a link here. Otherwise, you are talking of the evidence that you have never examined. Moreover, since the available contemporary translations use the phrase "Century of the left" or "Century of the Left" but the article uses "Century of the right" then it has all appearances of falsification of the existing evidence. If you claim that "Century of the left" and "Century of the Left" were translation errors then you, and not those who are skeptical of your claim, have the burden of proof here. As a reminder, any "consensus" -- factual or alleged -- is not a proof of your claim. So, would you, please, prove it. Thanks. 172.88.206.28 (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

As written before, there is no consensus on this quotation, as you can read at the Talk page, archive 42, in the Fascism article. If you have new elements to reconsider this decision, plese go on that talk page, and open a thread again, thanks. Alex2006 (talk) 04:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Greetings. I am not really familiar with the issue, I just removed an overlink from the last edit. However, if you are pertaining to archieves, please do not just pertain to the archieves but do open the discussion again. No archieve has ever decided for the future times; the discussion takes now. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

No, you - maybe accidentally? - reinserted the text that I removed: please see the history about that. About archives and discussion, I invited the users who reinserted the removed sentence to open a new thread in the Talk:Fascism page, where the past discussion took place. But, if a consensus has been reached in the past, the discussion can be opened again if new facts emerge. Otherwise, there is no sense in discussing again and again the same issue. Anyway, what they are trying to do here until now is a typical case of POVFORK. Bye, Alex2006 (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, indeed I did! Sorry about that, wasn't my intention! :) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 10:59, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Following up, that questionable "Century of the left" translation has been reinserted. I will remove, please notify me and/or revert if you feel I am doing so in error.DaBunny42 (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

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