Talk:The Guardian Legend/Archive 1

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Flesh Area

In Guardic Gaiden, Areas 7 and 8 of Naju make up the "Flesh Area". In this part of the game, the level that the guardian must walk through is made entirely of bloody flesh. This was changed into a more generic cave level for The Guardian Legend.

Really? I seem to remember areas 7 and 8 being made of "pulsating viscera" or something of the like, and I've only played the American Guardian Legend. Maybe the censorship occurred in a later run of the game? Thunderbunny 00:28, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I played this game recently and Areas 7 and 8 are still very organic. The labyrinths look very organic and the corridors are definately organic, with veins, eyes, and the landscape having a cellular look to it. My copy of the game was from 1989. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:216.124.244.231 (talk • contribs) 16:49, June 19, 2005
It's possible that Guardic Gaiden's version is more gruesome. Either way, that statement is flat out wrong. I've never gotten to that area in Guardic Gaiden, but as we speak I've been going through and looking for differences. --Blue Lander 1 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
Has this question been resolved? --TJive 13:13, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe this was for the European versions, to keep in line with Germany's strict laws—but that's a wild guess, and I've no idea how strict those laws were in the late '80s. —an odd name 19:59, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have tried the American version, the European version, and the Japanese one. Areas 7 and 8 do look the same in all the versions. The "Flesh Area" maybe only exists in early copies of the Japanese version? --85.230.59.139 22:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture/edit link error

Can anyone fix this? I'm a little unskilled in this area. --TJive 18:09, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

The protagonist's name

I often see the hero of the game referred to as Alyssa (including in this article and its External Links), but neither the game nor its instruction manual seem to use that name anywhere.

I'm still wondering how the name "Alyssa" got attached to her—or did I miss something?

(Some Japanese pages on Guardic Gaiden, such as this one and this one, show her name as システム　Ｄ．Ｐ．, "System DP", or ミリア, "MIRIA". Neither name is used in the American game or manual either, only "The Guardian of Earth" or similar titles.) —an odd name 19:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Made Changes to Article

I made some major changes to this article:

  • I eliminated the Trivia section, as it is discouraged per Wikipedia guidelines, and the eliminated content is more suitable for a strategy guide than in an encyclopedia article.
  • I included credits in the Infobox.
  • Reworked the Gameplay section to give a better overview of the game. Added sections and split paragraphs to make it easier to read.

I will try to work in references and notes from the instruction manual if I can sometime within the next day or two.

If there is anything that I may have overworked, feel free to make the necessary changes. MuZemike (talk) 01:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Should Listed Fan Site Be Included as an External Link?

The fan site The Guardian Legend Shrine does contain quite a bit of information about TGL. Even though it is inappropriate per Wikipedia Video Game guidelines to include fan sites, it may be relevant enough to leave it here, as it does include links to the Instruction Manual, both online and scanned versions.

I leave it to discussion as to whether or not it should stay. But as of right now, I am leaving it in the article.MuZemike (talk) 23:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Article Should Not Be Part of WikiProject Nintendo

This game was NOT released by Nintendo, nor by any of its 1st or 2nd parties as required for membership in that specific WikiProject. I am going to try to get the WikiProject Nintendo reference removed. MuZemike (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

This was re-added from the recent discovery that Nintendo published this game in Europe. MuZemike (talk) 22:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Reviews included

In the "Reception" section, I have referenced to two reviews, which I think sheds at least some light on the reception of this game. Note that these reviews have been done in retrospect to the game, as there is virtually no reviews or coverage done on this game circa 1988 or 1989.

Both reviews are from Gamespy. The first review seems to be more from a fan site, but keep in mind that this was pretty much all I could find. The second review is more proper with respect to formality, and does verifibility more justice.

You can look at the reviews in the References section of this article. Feel free to comment if necessary. MuZemike (talk) 18:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

References

I was recently able to find a handful of useful, authoritative sources for this article (believe me, they are not easy to find.) I've made quite a few corresponding additions and other edits which I hope will be helpful. Despite the lack of available information regarding this game, I think it is definitely still worthwhile to work on this article. Rg998 (talk) 09:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks great, so far! Some more work and we might have a potential GA. MuZemike (talk) 04:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Flyers, US box art

ゲーム広告資料館(in Japanese) is a blog post that appears to have advertising material for the Japanese version of the game, including one with the criticized ([1], [2]) "eyes" art used on the US box. --an odd name 20:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I cannot read Japanese, but it appears that the article also mentions a Famitsu score - that would be a great contribution if it was known exactly what issue the review appeared in. Additionally, it was noted that Naoyuki Kato did the original artwork, which would also be added if a verifiable source was found. Rg998 (talk) 03:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Famitsu gives a total score of up to 40 from four reviewers. The blog I listed gives a score of 7.50 (I'll assume that's an average of the four; they call it "high-scoring" per Google Translate); another blog post says it scored 30, which seems to agree (30/40 = 7.50/10 = 0.75).
Anyone got some 昭和63年 Famitsus we can borrow to check? ;) --an odd name 06:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

We could also include the Japanese box art and place that and the European box art slideshow-style (side-by-side) like at the bottom of the Joust (arcade game) article. MuZemike (talk) 16:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

A gallery sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea. I was looking for a way to incorporate the Japanese box art into the article, and that seems like an acceptable compromise. Rg998 (talk) 04:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 Done! MuZemike (talk) 19:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually it looks like that's all on one pamphlet, either printed on both sides or more likely folded, but it's a bit vague. One thing it does mention is this - "An interesting part of the pamphlet(s) is the top portion, where "flaps" are folded behind containing another page with bonus material; an enemy reference and item reference for the front and back flaps respectively" 地炎風水闇陽 (Talk) 21:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Article: Now and Then

Just for grins really, here's a diff of the old version of this article before the current people started extensively working on it. This article has come a long way, indeed! MuZemike (talk) 19:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And, with that just said, we should do the following steps for the article next:

  1. Wring it through one more good copyedit ourselves.
  2. Nominate it for another peer review.
  3. Make any corrections and improvements recommended by that peer review.
  4. If everything else looks good, nominate it for GA. MuZemike (talk) 19:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe we have now gone through every section. Perhaps the article is just about ready for another peer review. Rg998 (talk) 06:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
The Development section can also use some tweaking, as well. My main concern is that we have good, lengthy paragraphs instead of short, fragmented paragraphs; that is, something that resembles good overall structure. A whole bunch of short, choppy paragraphs shifts the readers' focus around too much. I'll look at it when I can within the next couple of days. BTW, good job on tweaking the stuff closely behind me; it does keep me on my toes as what to do better.
The Gameplay section would be the last thing I would go through. I did most of it myself, but it can certainly use some improvement before it hits the next peer review. MuZemike (talk) 06:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 Done Article nominated for (hopefully final one before GA nomination) peer review. MuZemike (talk) 19:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo Power Awards

It seems that the Nintendo Power Awards were not yet called the Nester Awards in 1989. The "trophies" were representations of Nester, but the event was simply called "Nintendo Power Awards '89" in the magazine. Rg998 (talk) 06:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I mean, I thought it was the other way around, since Nintendo Power back in the day (but I was barely 10 at the time) that it was more popularly known as the "Nester Awards." But, then again, I am taking this from the Nintendo Power article, which may not have been sourced. However, I can say from recollection at the very least that was what they were informally called.
Anyways, it doesn't matter one bit, we could revert back to the original term, and it wouldn't cause any harm whatsoever. MuZemike (talk) 06:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Japanese guidebook

A Japanese blog post shows the front and back covers of the "ガーディック外伝完全攻略テクニックブック", which I guess translates to "Guardic Gaiden Guide Technique Book" or somesuch.

The back cover shows ISBN 4-88658-076-9 and Webcat Plus has some info about it. I don't have it; maybe it or the instruction manual has some relevant info about the game (like Japanese character, boss and stage names)? --an odd name 01:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

My interest in this game is such that a while ago, I was inspired to purchase Guardic Gaiden as well as the guidebook you mentioned. They are both still in Japan, as I haven't had them shipped here yet, but it is likely that they will be useful for the article. I may have to seek help with translation, though... Rg998 (talk) 06:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)\
The book came in today. It lists names for all enemies, bosses, and items, strategies for each corridor, and a few narrative paragraphs. It seems very interesting. However, with no knowledge of Japanese, I cannot incorporate much of it into the article unless I can find help with translation, and even skipping the corridor strategies it seems like a lot to translate. Rg998 (talk) 06:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I would be willing to do it for this game (I've loved this game since my childhood years) if there were some way you could scan it or otherwise get me images of the guidebook to view. By the way, assuming it gets translated, would we be able to use it as a valid source in this article? I'm not at all familiar with wikipedia policy regarding the use of non-english language sources. 地炎風水闇陽 (Talk) 08:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
That would be extraordinarily helpful. As soon as I find some time I can probably start scanning some pages. This would probably be best done through e-mail; simply send me an e-mail with an address I can reply to. Rg998 (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a spare mail account at kilgamesh@gmail.com that you can mail to (I don't mind if spambots find this). I personally find this subject a lot more interesting than the other projects I'm working on, so I'll available to go at anytime and can start whenever you're able to scan. 地炎風水闇陽 (Talk) 20:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think it could be used, provided good citing—I'm not sure there's an English guide of the same or better quality. I was more concerned that it might not be "third-party" or "reliable" enough for a GA, but Final Fantasy VIII cites a strategy guide, and it's featured at the moment. (Probably not a good excuse to do that, but I won't complain about it.)
What I hope would happen is something like this (I made a page, with images "redacted", showing what I mean): the notes and citations get separated, so that the notes themselves can be cited. Right now, as I partly alluded to two years(!) ago, many Japanese sites call the protagonist Miria, but many places (mostly English, from what I've seen), including (but hardly limited to) a certain segment of deviantART, seem solidly convinced that the Guardian's name is Alyssa. Rg998, if you can find a page in that book or in the manual that says "System D.P." or Miria (ミリア) or Arisa (アリサ) or anything close to any of those, and (ideally, but not necessarily) shows the Guardian next to it, it might be useful for settling the name question (at least) once and for all. ;) --an odd name 11:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I like that idea. Additionally, I can tell you that システム　Ｄ．Ｐ． shows up frequently in the guidebook, but there seems to be no mention of a nickname. I imagine that the Guardic Gaiden manual (which I have also ordered) will be the definitive answer for that question. Rg998 (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Peer review

Seems like there are some good recommendations from the latest peer review. Rg998, do you want to address this portion of the review:

  • I would add a short one sentence description about how the Labyrinth relates to the space station. I assume the Labyrinth is Naju, but this is not completely clear from reading the gameplay section.

I'm going through all the other issues brought forward by Guyinblack25, but I figure you would have a better idea as how exactly to word that so it flows well. MuZemike (talk) 22:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is also an orphaned reference from the Reception section:
If there is another location in which this can be appropriately placed, please do so. It shold fit in somewhere. MuZemike (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Done. Also, if I can think of a way to incorporate that reference to improve the article, I will do so. However, it's probably not important enough to just tack on. Rg998 (talk) 05:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Good Article nomination

Based on improvements made after the recent peer review of this article, I have nominated it for Good Article status. Rg998 (talk) 05:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:The Guardian Legend/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

First of all I'd like to say thanks and congratulations to all involved in bringing the article up to such a high standard - for such an old game with mostly paper-based sources this must have taken some doing! The peer reviews have ironed out pretty much everything. Fair use rationales, stability, neutrality and MOS all seem fine. There are a couple of sentences needing cites and I'd like to discuss the images with you.

  • "These Blue Landers also serve as checkpoints; players can restart their game in these designated rooms after being defeated as long as the system is not turned off." Citation?
  • Instruction Manual, p. 7. I will make the appropriate citation. MuZemike (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • "While the keys must be obtained in a specific order, any area can be explored in a non–linear fashion as long as the player possesses the appropriate key." Citation?
  • Also from the Instruction Manual, p. 7: When you receive keys, use them to gain to different parts of the labyrinth. Include the same manual reference as above, and also rewrite the sentence to avoid any hint of original research. MuZemike (talk) 03:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Could the two gameplay images moved up one heading each? I know you've arranged them with their corresponding sections, but since the sections and the images themselves are labelled there doesn't seem to be an urgent need. Placing them up higher would stop the shoot-em-up image being stuck directly underneath the infobox.
  • The cover images were brought up in the last peer review, and to be honest this aspect of the development section and the images was my main sticking point. Because the Japanese cover was penned by a noted manga artist I believe this justifies its inclusion, as a thumb, but can't say the same about the European release.
  •  Done European box art removed and Japanese box art now a thumb in the section, complete with reference to Kato. MuZemike (talk) 04:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • "The localized box art for each release differs substantially. The original artwork on the cover of Guardic Gaiden was drawn by Japanese science-fiction illustrator Naoyuki Kato and depicts the guardian as a female cyborg.[21] This cover also features the English text "Legend of Goardic," a loose interpretation of the original Japanese title. The box art underwent a change in the North American version of The Guardian Legend and consists of two eyes overlooking a stormy, cratered landscape with The Guardian nowhere to be seen. The box art was again changed in the European version to an image of The Guardian looking up at Naju from a rocky surface in space." Having three separate box designs is not unusual in this era of videogames, describing each seems like excess padding. This part about a loose translation, does this mean a loose translation of "Guardic Gaiden" or was the game originally to be called "Legend of Goardic"? Do you have a source? Unless the game was originally called something else and you have a source to prove it (IE it's development info), I'm not convinced that it needs saying at all.
  • Since the first installment was plainly named Guardic, I agree it might not be necessary, as it can be inferred from the word "Gaiden" in the Japanese title Guardic Gaiden. Rg998, I'll leave it up to you about what to do with it, as you might have another idea as how to reword it contrasted to simply removing it. MuZemike (talk) 04:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
  • I eliminated the second paragraph and incorporated the Kato reference into the first paragraph. I agree that there was not much substance to the other cover art information. I'll wait for a good source to further expand the "Development" section. Rg998 (talk) 07:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That's it, I'll be offline shortly but will be back tomorrow. Someoneanother 03:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I've shifted the dungeon image into reception to let the infobox breathe, placing images can be a bit fiddly unless it's a large article. Thank you again for your efforts, The Guardian Legend is now a Good Article. Someoneanother 12:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

post-GA stuff

I think the article could easily make A-class or even FA. Except for a few uncited things, it looks perfect to me, and references lots of print sources I've never even heard of. (It also looks about the same length as Hurricane Gloria which is on the front page, not that it matters too much.)

A few things:

  • Per MobyGames and a forum post on SMS Power!, Miyamo Shant is actually two people: Miyamoto (Miyamo) and Takeshi Santo (Shant). That's supported somewhat by the game (US version), which credits "MIYAMO" and "SHANT" in separate lines for music, and then credits (only) "SHANT" as a tester. I changed the article to reflect that, but I think we should seek a source for those full names (preferably not those sites) in case anyone seeing the credits and looking here wonder from what aether they were pulled. I know that MuZemike merged Notes and References not too long ago, but I'll probably add a Notes section again (as I said previously that I wanted) and simply note that they are credited as "Miyamo" and "Shant" in-game.
  • Should we add more character information, like (e.g.) a list with The Guardian and the bosses, and whatever the Japanese guide and manual say about them (the US manual only mentions some boss names)? For example, that site with the pamphlets shows one with the bosses, and while they look the same there as in the US manual, their names(?) in red do not (below the one that looks like Optomon, it says "Kaikuru (カイクル)" or something like that—it's low-resolution and hard to make out). I wonder if the partial Nintendo Power walkthrough (see "Reception") described any of them or their backstory. I hope that Rg998 and 地炎風水闇陽 can add any background information on The Guardian and the bosses as well as The Guardian's nickname (if any) from the Japanese guide and manual (I know that Rg998 said they couldn't find any nickname in the guide for her, or as the US manual sometimes calls The Guardian, "it").

Any thoughts? --an odd name 22:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

A few things.
  • I recently checked the Japanese version of the game out. The credits at the end of the game are actually identical to the English ones - the font, names, everything. Thus, anything you can get out of the English credits you can assume will be reflected in the JP version.
  • For some reason, the storyline blurb that appears when you leave the game running is also in English, although it is quite different from what we can observe in the English version.
  • The computer screen messages from the english version are dead-on translations, and faithful to the JP version. Altogether, the JP cart doesn't really have any story exposition that the english cart lacks.
  • Something interesting about the writing in the JP version. Due to size issues, Japanese NES games only write with basic scripts. Being an NES game, the writing is rather sparse. However, it does use exactly two kanji characters, which it uses to write the word "seal" (封印) in the computer messages. I doubt there's any place for that in this article, it's just something I find intensely interesting as a chinese character nut.
I recently read the guidebook (thanks to RG998)
  • Yes, almost all of the boss names are different. All versions of "Optomon" are apparently "Eguru Gaiburu" (Gaiburu can look almost identical to that "Kaifuru" you mentioned depending on readability conditions - ガイブル　カイフル). While the opening boss' name is Garimu Gurobasuto. These are nonsense names slightly less sensible than say "bomb-omb" is in English. I can only guess that the English localization team made up the names we know.
  • As for background info, I think the JP manual will be more helpful. The guidebook only contained a very short 4 sentence story section which mostly rehashed what we already know of the story.
  • As for boss background info, there was virtually none.
  • Miria, System D.P, and Guardic are all mentioned. When Miria is referred to, it's in the pattern [System D.P Miria]. Interestingly, when it refers to the player as Guardic it is exclusively Miria in her aero-form. It makes no mention of Alyssa or any other character other than Miria. 地炎風水闇陽 (Talk) 00:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Great! I wonder, though:
  • Is she always called "System D.P Miria", or is she always called "System D.P" and only called "Miria" when she's humanoid? Can you tell?
  • Do you have page numbers for that? I've added citations for the book itself, but page #s would be very helpful. Provide quotes if you can as well, or send the scans themselves to throwaway500@gmail.com (a throwaway address I just set up) so I can make them at some other time.
Thank you, and thanks to RG998 as well! --an odd name 03:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here's the context in which the names appear.
  • Page 2. ”なすすべもない地球に、ある日女性戦士「システムＤ．Ｐ．」が送りこまれてきた。” Roughly "eventually, with no other recourse, Female Warrior(s) [System D.P.] was dispatched by Earth." The Japanese compound noun "女性戦士 System DP" "female warrior(s) System DP" could very well be plural here. (any given noun could be plural in Japanese, but context such as there being only one "Earth" usually clears things up) It doesn't go on to specify. Looking at the sentence now, I can see that I made an oversight in the translation I sent back to RG998. Blah.
  • Page 3. ”システムＤ．Ｐ．の機能と、惑星ナジュの実体を知ろう！！” "Let's learn the facts about Planet Naju and System D.P.'s Abilities!!" literally. This is the beginning of the guidebook part just before it gets into the controller layout.
  • Page 4. ”システムＤ．Ｐ．オプション１２” "System DP 12 Options" This section is devoted to the chip-consuming special weapons.
  • Page 5. ”システムＤ．Ｐ．アイテム” "System DP Items". Same type of section for the powerups.
  • Page 9. This is the only page (of 1-9 52-56 that I've seen) that mentions Miria. ”システムＤ．Ｐ．ミリアのまえにたちふさがる、さまざまの障害。” Literally "Various obstacles stand in the way before System D.P. Miria." The way it looks from all of this is that System DP is something general, whereas Miria is a specific subset/individual. The big problem is that this is just not being declared anywhere outright.
  • Page 55. The player is referred to as Guardic many times throughout these corridor "boss strategy" pages.　One example ”はげしくふりそそぐナジュの破片は、あきらかにガーディックの機体を狙ってとんでくるのだった。” Literally "The broken fragments of Naju - clearly aimed at Guardic’s fuselage - violently came rushing." The use of the technical term for machine body/fuselage (機体) when referring to the Guardic's body is strongly suggestive of the fighter plane form.
That's it for the names. 地炎風水闇陽 (Talk) 07:14, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll take out mentions of Miria, for now, and cite her "System D.P." name as page 2 of the guidebook and her "Guardic" form as page 55.
At least one English Web post says her name is phrased as "Saikyou Senshi [strongest warrior] System D.P.--aishou [pet name] Miria", though. So that form is probably in the Japanese manual, if not the guide. --an odd name 16:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Currently, the article mixes two forms of cite templates. I'm personally used to using {{Cite ____}} but others prefer {{Citation}} and there are lots of both templates in the article. Which (if any!) should we use? Or should we keep them mixed (as is)? --an odd name 17:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As long as they are footnoted, it really doesn't matter where they go. It may not be a bad idea, however, to separate the regular footnotes from the citation references.
On that same MobyGames page, it mentions that Miyamo Shant's (music) real name is Masatomo Miyamoto. (At least that's what I get when I search for "Masatomo Miyamoto" on the MobyGames website or on Google.) However, this still needs some sort of reference verifying that, and MobyGames won't do it.
As far as A-Class/FA is concerned, I don't know think adding a list of bosses is the best idea as it can construe gameguide material. A real-world audience may not find such info very useful, and I don't think reviewers (i.e. for A-Class or for FA) will look at that info very highly at all.
Those are my thoughts ar of right now. MuZemike (talk) 01:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
That's what I thought about the boss info shortly after I wrote that. (Otherwise I would've put it in myself!) Consider that suggestion struck.
I saw the Masatomo Miyamoto page you (probably) mean, before I added Santo. (The game's Moby page lists both Masatomo and Santo.) Again, though, the idea of Miyamo and Shant as separate people seems more credible to me; their names are on different lines, and "SHANT" is listed alone as a tester in the credits. But the only good source we have (right now) are the game credits, so with that and the lack of RSes (on the web) for those full names, I lean toward reverting your edit (and mine) to Miyamo Shant (or even, but less likely, "Miyamo, Shant") until a good source is found. --an odd name 05:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
It further complicates matters that pretty much everyone in the credits went by a nickname. According to the Compile article on the Japanese Wikipedia [3] "Jemini" Hirono and "Wao Isee" are nicknames for Takayuki Hirono and Tadashi Ishimaru, respectively. It is almost certain that "Janus" Teramoto is a nickname, and possible that Pochi Nakamori is as well. I have been unable to find a verifiable source for this information so far, but the real names of the programmers should definitely be included. Hopefully one of us can verify this information. Rg998 (talk) 09:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
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