Talk:The Internationale/Archives/2007

Copyright status of the Internationale

I just read the Copyright Law of the People's Republic of China. Article 2 says, "Any work of a foreigner or stateless person which is eligible to enjoy copyright under an agreement concluded between the country to which the foreigner belongs or in which he has habitual residence and China, or under an internationa1 treaty to which both countries are party, shall be protected in accordance with this Law." Since China and France have both signed the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, does that mean that the French copyright of the melody applies in China?--Jusjih 06:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea about this, but if it is copyrighted it is ignored. -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 07:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The lines regarding copyright in the article need clarification anyway. I'm unaware of any copyright law that would prevent this or any other song from being sung at private, meetings. ~CS 18:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

You know what? It's been almost a year since this was first raised, and nothing has been done to clarify it. I'm striking out the offending lines. ~CS 18:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

A movie producer in France was asked to pay €1000 for the use of the song by the corporation administering the authors' rights because the copyright holder had evidence. I have seen a Chinese article calling it "please deposit money to sing the Internationale". I cannot think of its fair use in the public. In order to claim payment or damage for its use elsewhere, there must be neighbouring rights honoring copyright of other countries and areas. Many international copyright conventions do this. When the Soviet Union used the melody as its national anthem, there was probably no neighbouring right honoured. As the Internationale was originally intended to be sung to the tune of La Marseillaise, I just found at fr:La Marseillaise that there were students singing La Marseillaise in the Tiananmem Square Protest in 1989.--Jusjih 03:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I know nothing about French copyright law, but in any case I'm familiar with there's a massive difference between using the song in a film and singing it at a meeting or a protest. One is a for-profit venture where the copyright holders need to be compensated, the other is private, possibly spontanious, and beholden to no copyright restrictions. There's nothing to stop anyone from singing a song at a protest, while walking down the street, or while in the shower. AFAIK. ~CS 17:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Translated from fr: (My French isn't that good, may have a mistake or two but I think I have the big picture)

The Chinese students who demonstrated in Tiananmen also sang the Marseillaise, which was their first song among the fighters of freedom (???). The event was a protest against the increasing corruption of power, Deng Xiaoping's policy of economic liberalisation, and prejudice against the poor.

Good job French compatriots! Finally someone who's actually got the guts to stand up to the western propaganda machine and expose those commies for who they were! :D

But we need something more than the French Wikipedia to put it on the Wiki :D Anyway, it's off topic on this page, The Internationale, a song which I think is way cooler than La Marseillaise! :D -- Миборовский ^{U|T|C|M|E|Chugoku Banzai!} 04:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I think in the context of this article the lyrics are fair use under American copyright law (that's fair dealing to you Commonwealth folks), which is what applies to Wikimedia. There is ample analysis and exposition, and the lyrics are short. If your read the LOC's fair use guidelines you will see that quoting a short poem (not an epic!) in its entirety within a larger work is not a problem for fair use. NTK 02:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The question of copyright in this instance was not the issue of fair use to use in the Wikipedia article itself, but about a line (since removed) that regarded it being sung at political rallies. The article at the time intimated that such singing was against copyright law, which I suspect to be untrue. ~CS 02:59, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Surely both lyricist and composer have been dead for long enough for it to be out of copyright.

Comrades beware! The Internationale is not out of copyright yet. Olivier Besancenot, leader of the French Revolutionary Communist League (otherwise not a great friend of mine) found this out the hard way when he was arrested in 2004 for singing it (without due copyright payments) at a public party rally. Not that the law is usually enforced for public meetings, but I would take care when using it in films and the like anyway.

From commons:Commons:Licensing#Wartime copyright extensions:

"Note that one should not assume that copyright holders do not try enforce these extensions. In 2005, right holders demanded payment for a movie where a character whistled The Internationale, whose author died in 1932. On the other hand, the Paris Appeal Court ruled against applying the extensions in 2004 [1], but on 12 October 2005, another section of the same court applied the extension so that the works of a painter who died in 1931 will not enter the public domain before late 2016 [2]. The case is now before the French supreme court (Court of Cassation)."

There are grey zones to the French wartime copyright extensions. As the Internationale was originally intended to be sung to the tune of La Marseillaise, does anyone know this practice nowadays? (See also fr:La_Marseillaise#Loi about the penalty for insulting the French anthem.)--Jusjih 08:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Based on [3], it seems that the French copyright extension CANNOT be applied in the United States as the melody was set in 1888.--Jusjih 06:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I just found that as the Internationale music was published in the late 19th century (before 1 July 1909), its French copyright is not valid in the USA. :-)--Jusjih 01:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

oh the irony...

I'm wondering why the section on copyright is so prominently placed in the article. The important thing is not the copyright of the song, but the song itself. I would think it more fit to place the lyrics first. If there is a need for some kind of explanation of the copyright status as justification of placing the lyrics on the page it could come at the end like most disclaimers. Elentirmo 13:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There was a well known copyright case in France so I see no problem having it so prominently placed in the article. As only very few countries copyright individual works for life + more than 70 years, Pierre Degeyter's melody should be in the public domain in many places. For now I do not support your idea to place the lyrics first while the melody might remain copyrighted in Mexico (life + 100 years) as well.--Jusjih 17:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"national" anthem

The text claims that the Internationale was the national anthem of the Soviet Union from 1917. I have no doubt that it was sung and played on state occasions. Nevertheless, I think there are several problems with the assertion. 1) It was undoubtedly sung and played as an expression of internationalism, and the concept of a national anthem is somewhat at odds with such an expression. 2) The Soviet Union did not exist from 1917. I therefore suspect Original Research. I posted a fact tag, but no citations were forthcoming. I will delete the claim. If a citation for the claim is found, feel free to re-insert. --BostonMA 01:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

It most certainly was the national anthem of the USSR, although the dates may (or may not) be a little off. The wikipedia article on USSR claims it was the anthem from 1922, but is a little fuzzy on what date to consider as the birth of the USSR (1917, 1922). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.195.186.34 (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)