Talk:The Magpie (Monet)/Archive 1

Notes

Title

Resolved

• There are at least two different titles for the work. Which is correct?
  • The Magpie
  • The Magpie, Snow Effect, Outskirts of Honfleur
    • Is this an error? Need to check Wildenstein.
      • It is not clear why some sources call the painting by its alternative name.
        • Appears settled per Impressionist and post-impressionist masterpieces at the Musée d'Orsay (1989)

Dates

Resolved

• Dating issues are a problem in the sources. They seem to have solidified after the 1980s (due to acquisition below?)
  • Sproccati (2004): "some art historians prefer to date it at 1872".
  • Yet Chapin & Seitz (1982) date it from 1867-1870.
  • 1865 date of The Cart, an early snowcape, is seen as 1868 instead due to recent evidence
    • Ross King in The Judgment of Paris: The Revolutionary Decade (2006) compounds this error/revision, by referring to the 1965/1967 observation of Monet painting The Cart as The Magpie instead. (253) Is this a simple error?
      • At least one source agrees with King: Impressionist and post-impressionist masterpieces at the Musée d'Orsay (1989).
        • Settled. Journalist was writing in October 1868 was referring to winter of 1866-1867. (House 1988)
  • Guerlain collection, Paris listed as 1946 in Moffett et al. 1999, but 1957 at the Musée d'Orsay website.

Ownership history

Resolved

• When Gustave Caillebotte died in 1894, his will stipulated that 68 paintings would be given to the French government but must be displayed in the Luxembourg Palace and the Louvre. 16 of these paintings were by Monet; need to verify that The Magpie was part of this collection. At the time, the French government only accepted 8 of the 16 paintings, most likely not The Magpie. Did it go to the Barnes Foundation or not? Was it exhibited before the Musée d'Orsay acquired it in 1985?
  • Somewhat resolved.[1]
  • Exhibitions at Durand-Ruel Gallery in 1883, 1891, 1892, 1895 and 1907. At what point was the painting acquired by Durand-Ruel?

Girlfriend

Sounds terribly 1960s! Is their any chance of changing this to "partner"? Amandajm (talk) 05:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

It works for me, but many of these older sources also refer to her as a mistress. If you think that partner is a better fit, then change it. Viriditas (talk) 05:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Looking at this a second time, it appears that the term "girlfriend" here might be an anachronism. Viriditas (talk) 08:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Three statements

• it is considered one of the most popular paintings in their permanent collection.

You have give two reference to back up this statement.

But it is a "blanket" statement. It is a statement that say nothing real.

We are talking about the Musee D'Orsay where this little snowscape competes for public attention with Monet's Water lilies, Garden at Giverny, and Gare Saint Lavare, with Manet's Dejeuner sur l'herbe, Seurat's Sunday Afternoon on the Grande Jatte, Rouseau's Snake Charmer. It competes for popularity with Van Gogh's blue Self portrait, the Church at Arles and the Artist's Bedroom; with Renoir's Moulin de la Galette and Gauguin's Tahitian Women.

For this reason, the statement that "it is considered to be one of the most popular paintings in their permanent collection needs a great deal more support. How do they know it's "one of the most popular"? Did a survey provide that information? Do thousands of people who come in the door ask to be directed to it? Is it on the museum's shortlist of "twenty artworks you must not miss?" Is it one of the most reproduced works in the collection?

Some statement like any of the above would support the claim.

• is considered the largest winter painting in his collected work

Why is it "considered"?

The term "collected work" in this sense implies not simply the work in that collection, but the whole oeuvre of Monet. It's measurements are precisely known. This is the point at which a definite and unqualified statement can be given. I either is or isn't the largest snowscape extant by Monet.

• The front page statement: is considered one of Claude Monet's best snowscape paintings? is simply fluffy. A good DYK needs to provide a fact.

Amandajm (talk) 05:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

In regards to popularity, the museum did a survey, probabaly on gallery exit (going from memory, I'm mobile at the moment) and this is covered by multiple independent sources. As for the hook, there are three sources cited directly, more in the article, and even more not cited. It is a fact. Care to provide the name of a single snowscene by Monet (not a serial work) that is considered of a higher value? I looked and could not find one. This is it, my friend. As I wrote above, the current image is terrible. For a more accurate view, see the hires external link. Viriditas (talk) 06:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Now that I'm at home, I have a bit more time to devote to these questions. According to Sweeney (1999): "The catalog that accompanies the exhibition states that, based on visitor surveys and reproduction sales, this cheery painting is the most popular work in Paris's Musee d'Orsay." All of the secondary sources that make this claim presumably refer to page 13 of the book Impressionists in Winter: Effets de Neige (1998), the catalog for the 98-99 exhibition: "Visitor surveys and sales of postcard and reproductions indicate that it is the most popular single image in the museum." Looking at the book online, this statement is sourced to footnote 3 which I don't have access to at the moment, but I will order the book because it contains information that could help expand this and other articles. Viriditas (talk) 01:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, I think I accessed footnote 3, which points to p. 206 in the book Impressionists in Winter. All of the sources are listed in one large paragraph (why do they do that?), so it is not clear which source supports this statement. I'll keep looking. Viriditas (talk) 03:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

That quote from Sweeney about sales of postcards etc is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be included as a direct quote, rather than a fairly nebulous statement to the effect that it is "one of the most popular". Amandajm (talk) 09:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It is not Sweeney's opinion. He (and other sources) are directly citing the exhibition catalog for Impressionists in Winter: Effets de Neige (1998). I've already added the quote from the catalog to this article in a footnote, but I think you are saying it should be added into the body of the text and expanded. Sweeney is only important to show that this has been cited by secondary sources. The catalog itself has references on p. 206, but I'm unable (at the moment) to determine which one they are using to support this claim. I will consider merging the quote into the article in some way per your suggestion. Viriditas (talk) 09:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

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