Talk:The Unicorn Tapestries

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Shamanistic-Visionary Theory[edit]

There may be symbolism for the ayahuasca ceremony and also the amanita muscaria ceremony in the tapestry. The initials that are bound by rope may be representative of ayahuasca (the capital A and the rope) and amanita muscaria (the reversed capital E). This is because the "negative" space of the Aleph (the open space between the two vertical bars of the A) is actually the rightside-up leaf of the Psychotria viridis plant, as seen on its wikipedia page, here. The rope is a depiction of Banisteriopsis caapi, which takes the form of rope when dried, as seen here. Banisteriopsis caapi acts as an MAOI for the N,N-Dimethyltryptamine naturally occurring in the Psychotria viridis. The reversed E is obviously a sideways cross-section of an amanita muscaria mushroom. I argue that the tapestries depict the psychedelic experience of doing ayahuasca and amanita muscaria at the same time. Thus, the tapestries may act as part of a shamanic ritual involving consumption of the two entheogens.There are also blatant inebriological symbols in the fountain found in The Unicorn is Found. First, the dual spring represents the recycling of body fluids that occurs during the amanita muscaria ceremony, particularly the imbibing of urine that occurs as a filtering and concentration of the psychoactive elements in consumed amanita muscaria. (Source: The Pharmacratic Inquisition 01:01:55) The fountain water streams out of the fountain from a puking lion's mouth. Puking is perhaps a reference to the ayahuasca ceremony in which puking is often unavoidable and an accepted ("Vomiting can follow ayahuasca ingestion; this purging is considered by many shamans and experienced users of ayahuasca to be an essential part of the experience, as it represents the release of negative energy and emotions built up over the course of one's life." source). The unicorn that purifies the stream is therefore symbolically the shaman. This research is public domain. 24.255.255.94 (talk) 23:08, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This "research" is just verbose scholarship vanishing up its own arsehole. Nuttyskin (talk) 00:22, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thousands[edit]

I wouldn't say "thousands of years" about Christianity for the obvious reason, but can't think of a better way to phrase that. --Kizor 23:12, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

tried a simple fix --agr 23:50, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I added images, but I don't think I ordered or captioned them correctly[edit]

I added some images, but I don't think I ordered or captioned them correctly. Please fix. Also, find an image for the seventh tapestry. - Peregrine Fisher 08:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The most important info is missing:[edit]

Where are these tapestries from? (are they Flemish?) Who made them? This should be stated in the very first sentence. Their modern history is by definition of secondary importance. Aviad2001 09:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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What does this mean?[edit]

Furthermore, the passage, "Has several intentional allusions to the Hindu goddess Kali Ma, ..." is based on nonsense: there is no evidence that anyone in Europe at this time had anything but the sketchiest and most distorted idea of Indian culture whatsoever. Nuttyskin (talk) 00:30, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are several allusions to Kali Ma and Hindu religion in tapestry 6. Silk, textiles as well as Indigo dye had been imported from India via the Silk road and these commodities were essential to the production of tapestries which utilized silk and dye for the manufacture of said tapestries. The silk road which connected China, South Asian countries such as India and several other countries with Europe and the Mediterranean had been bringing spice and textiles to Europe for nearly 1500 years. [1] Unicursive (talk) 00:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, materials and pigments. But the first Europe had any cultural awareness of India was not until the time of the East India Company in the 16th Century. This, despite well-documented links between Ancient Greece and India (e.g., Hindu astrology). Yet only during the years of direct cultural exchange do we see any concrete evidence of Indian culture influencing Europe.Nuttyskin (talk) 04:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. This is amateur OR. Johnbod (talk) 04:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_along_the_Silk_Road

Titles?[edit]

The article presently lists the titles as:

  1. The Start of the Hunt
  2. The Unicorn at the Fountain
  3. The Unicorn Attacked
  4. The Unicorn Defending Himself
  5. The Unicorn Is Captured by the Virgin (two fragments)
  6. The Unicorn Killed and Brought to the Castle
  7. The Unicorn in Captivity

But the Met's website has different titles, namely:

  1. The Hunters Enter the Woods (37.80.1)
  2. The Unicorn Purifies Water (37.80.2)
  3. The Unicorn Crosses a Stream (37.80.3)
  4. The Unicorn Defends Himself (37.80.4)
  5. The Unicorn Surrenders to a Maiden (38.51.1)
  6. The Hunters Return to the Castle (37.80.5)
  7. The Unicorn Rests in a Garden (37.80.6)

The reference for the titles currently in the article is from 1941; should the titles be updated to reflect what is currently on the website? Umimmak (talk) 21:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page move[edit]

This page was moved today without discussion. Have the links for the previous title been fixed? Victoria (tk) 18:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just took care of them; @Remainsuncertain: as a heads up when you move a page you need to go through and fix all the double redirects. Umimmak (talk) 19:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Got it, thanks - I realized after the fact that I might have been a little overeager in moving it without discussion. I asked about how to fix everything over at the help desk, but glad others got to it first! Remainsuncertain (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you should certainly have had a proper WP:RM nom. Given WP:THE, it should probably be at Unicorn Tapestries, which already redirects here. Johnbod (talk) 21:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lesson learned, and giving myself a gentle trout to the face. Would it make any sense to belatedly add a discussion template here (to be reverted if necessary)?
However, I'd argue that "the" makes sense here, since "unicorn tapestries" could refer to any tapestries of unicorns, and could theoretically be its own article (a la convention #1 on WP:THE), whereas "the unicorn tapestries" more or less universally refers to these tapestries. Remainsuncertain (talk) 22:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's an 18 year consensus for the previous title, with many many links. Given the unilateral name change it's difficult to tell whether the link page is now correct, plus the text would ideally be changed throughout. The Cloisters in fact refers the them as the "Unicorn Tapestries" only in context of the indiviual pieces link for example. I'm not seeing a page for the set as a whole. I took a quick look at scholarship and still see them being referred to by the "Hunt" name. Also, we don't have to follow the Cloisters naming, which for example calls the Mérode Altarpiece by a different name. These are very old objects that had a history before they landed in New York. Page moves, particularly on articles with this many links and this long of a history requires a Wikipedia:Requested moves discussion and consensus. Plus we have to figure out what to do with The unicorn tapestries which used to redirect to the Lady and the Unicorn but now redirects here? Victoria (tk) 23:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. Given the ones in Paris are much the better known globally (perhaps not in the US), I think at least a hat-note is needed here. No doubt there are others, but I think only these two sets on the subject are really well-known, or have articles. The old title was somewhat ambiguous too, as there are prints by Jean Duvet and so on. Johnbod (talk) 03:22, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see the Scottish royal tapestry collection had various sets, some perhaps duplicating those in London & New York, but none have survived the tough conditions there. Several tapestries were blown up along with Lord Darnley. Johnbod (talk) 03:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've already acknowledged that I made a mistake in moving the page without discussion, and am more than willing to rectify that mistake however I can. If you have any suggestions for how to move forward, I'm all ears. I'll gladly request a revert myself, if it's deemed appropriate.
As for the name itself - the Cloisters refers to them as "The Unicorn Tapestries" in all the publications I have found (x x x x x). They do not use the "Hunt" title at all, unlike the Mérode Altarpiece, which is included parenthetically on Met publications. If "The Hunt of the Unicorn" was the pieces' commonly recognizable name, it would be difficult and highly unusual for the institution which owns them (and publishes much of their relevant scholarship) to not even acknowledge it. Most of the references I found to the "Hunt" title are as secondary mentions in sources that primarily refer to "The Unicorn Tapestries" (x x x). "The Hunt of the Unicorn" is used in scholarship (though still, as far as i can tell, less frequently than "The Unicorn Tapestries"), but far more relevant, I feel, to the question of their commonly recognizable name is that "The Unicorn Tapestries" is used in virtually all recent media intended for the general public. The most mainstream source I have found that uses the "Hunt" title is an article from JSTOR Daily, which itself uses "The Unicorn Tapestries" as well (just not in the headline) and itself clearly intended for a more academic audience than other sources. A look at the references for this article shows that none of the references used for this article use "The Hunt of the Unicorn," at least in their own titles. "The Hunt of the Unicorn" was a common title throughout the tapestries' long history, but that has no relevance to the fact that it is not their commonly recognizable name in 2023.
Because of this, I truly did not think the move would be controversial, and was following the guidelines for page moves under that assumption. As I said, I should've played it safe. Too bold, lesson learned. remainsuncertain (talk) 03:32, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, moving it back seems problematic because The Hunt of the Unicorn is a new page created yesterday [1], so something would have to be done to preserve the page history for this page. I'm not up for a big discussion. Johnbod, what do you suggest? I'll try to get back here, but not able to do much right now. Plus I hardly ever move pages, so not very versed in the process. Victoria (tk) 21:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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