Talk:Tiverton Preedy

Tiverton Preedy has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 28, 2008	Articles for deletion	Kept
July 30, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

This page was proposed for deletion by an editor in the past.

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Please expand lead

The lead is too short for a GA article. I suggest you expand it before the article is reviewed. Lemurbaby (talk) 00:30, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is resolved. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:33, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tiverton Preedy/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: – Quadell ^(talk) 15:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: User:ChrisTheDude

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	No problems with the prose.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	The infobox, lead, persondata, categories, etc., are excellent. MoS followed.
	2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Acceptable
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Citations are good.
	2c. it contains no original research.	No problem here.
	3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Discussed below.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	No problems here.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	No problems here.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	No problems here.
	6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	No problems.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	Captions are great. Images are relevant.
	7. Overall assessment.	This is a Good Article. Congratulations!

Issues that should be dealt with

These items need to be dealt with before this article can be certified as a "Good Article". (Some may only need to be answered or discussed.)

According to WP:LEAD, the lead section should summarize all sections of the article without introducing new information. The lead is too short, and should incorporate info from the "Early Life", "Departure from Barnsley", and "Later years" sections.
- Lead expanded -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Excellent, much improved. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
More categories would be appropriate, dealing with him being a clergyman, and perhaps founding a football team.
- Added a clergy-related cat. AFAICS there is no cat for "founders of football clubs". Maybe there ought to be....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any Barnsley-FC-related photos that could be included? Or photos of the places he lived and worked? Would this photo of him boxing (published 1905) be appropriate?
- I hadn't spotted that picture. As it is over 100 years old, it is in the PD and therefore there is no justification for having a Fair Use image. I have therefore swapped it for the one in the infobox and added two other images too......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - It's really too bad we can't use the other photo, as I suspect it may be in the public domain. I wish we had more information about it.
If Preedy "reportedly encountered" someone, we need a cite to whoever reported that.
- Reportedly" removed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Does footnote #5 (Lupson, p.17) really cover every point in the paragraph it cites? Similarly, does footnote #4 (p.16) cover all three sentences it appears to cite? Does footnote #12 also cover the walking stick, pipe and tobacco pouch gifts?
- Yes, yes and yes respectively :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are a few dates/years missing. When did he join and leave the rugby club? When did he start Barnsley F.C.? When did he open a boxing club?
- The book does not give the dates when he joined or left the rugby club, or the ddate when he opened the boxing club. Date of formation of the football club added -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Hobbs says the boxing club was founded in 1906, but he doesn't say which of his sources he's using. Too bad. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The external link contains useful information (sourced) not in this article.
- Barnsley FC was called "The Saints".
  - Sourced only to H2G2, not a reliable source -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hm, I'd thought that was legitimate BBC, too bad. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- They "played home games in the grounds of a local pub"
  - As above -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It gives info on the religious services for players
  - I don't see that anywhere on the page.....? Maybe I'm not looking hard enough....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - I mean the Pall Mall Gazette (1898) article. Isn't there some additional important information in the reprinted news articles that are not in Lupson? – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It tells what Preedy's salary was.
  - It's not his salary, it's the amount of funding that the mission received from its governing body. I'm not sure that's enormously relevant/encyclopedic..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - "My income here is [pounds]150, granted by the A.C.S." Are you sure that's not salary? – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- It gives information on his personality. "Although only 5 feet 5 inches tall, his stocky build and steely eyes gave him a formidable appearance and none of the neighbourhood toughs would dare raise a finger to him." "He had no hesitation in putting up his fists to ensure that the wage packet was not squandered on drink."
  - None of that is sourced on the webpage, as far as I can see -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Preedy named the the Ashdown Club, "the premier wrestling club in the country at the time".
  - Also not cited to a specific source, so impossible to cite in our article -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- In all of the above, Hobbs does not cite a specific source for each statement, as we have to on Wikipedia. But he does list his sources at the bottom. This indicates that such information exists, and could (eventually) be added. My own searches indicate that all information available online (including Google Books and Amazon "Look Inside") have already been included. I'm sure Lupson has been used to the fullest. I think more off-line research would need to be done before this made Featured status, but I'm convinced that GA criterion 3a has been adequately fulfilled here.

Further suggestions

These are places where I believe the article can be improved. But GA status is not dependent on them being dealt with.

The persondata box should have place of birth and place of death.
- Added -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "References" section would be much improved by splitting "Notes" and "References" into separate sections, with notes linking to references. See Augmentative and alternative communication for an example.

I can't find any info on the copyright status of the one photo in the article. It passes our WP:NFCC just fine, but it would be great if you could find definitive information on whether it's in the public domain or not.
- See above -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Finding that information (and therefore, being able to use the image in the article) would greatly benefit the article. But it's not, of course, necessary for GA status. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote 4 references "All Saints' Mission, Pentonville", and might as well link to the article itself.
- Courtesy link added -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article uses British English. I'm not a Brit, but some of the prose feels old-fashioned. "Preedy was engaged to assist the vicar", "had become keen on the concept", "youngster", and so on. Is this appropriate tone for a modern encyclopedia article in British English? I really don't know the answer.
- Those all sound fine to me -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:03, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - This is still bugging me, and I wish I were experienced enough to know for sure. I'll ask around for the opinions of a native British English speaker. Give me a few days. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Resolved, per Jezhotwells, below. – Quadell ^(talk) 20:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This GA nomination has passed. Congratulations! – Quadell ^(talk) 20:31, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion

Quadell has asked for my opinions on the prose, specific examples cited were:

"Preedy was engaged to assist the vicar" Nothing wrong with that - a concise description of what a curate does.
"Preedy was taken with the idea of" Nothing wrong with that, standard English phrase, not uniquely British.
"Terry Allen boxed at the club as a youngster" "youngster" is very common word. Possibly slightly informal, but not seriously so like kid, etc.
"Barnsley defeated West Bromwich Albion to lift the trophy" Standard football phrasing familiar to anyone, I would have thought.
"Preedy had become keen on the concept of" I see no issue here - standard phrasing.

I have read through the article and see no prose issues. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- Thanks! – Quadell ^(talk) 20:21, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns about the wording

User:Pyrotec has expressed some concerns about the style of the wording in this article. These are found at User_talk:Pyrotec#Request_assistance_with_British_English. Perhaps editors of this article may want to read this and find areas for improvement. – Quadell ^(talk) 17:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]