Talk:Tmolus (son of Ares)

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Requested move 28 March 2021[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. After much-extended time for discussion, the discussion has become rather involved, but there is a clear consensus that the disambiguation page should occupy the base page name; I have moved the other pages per the original proposal and broken out Mount Tmolus into a separate article, as suggested herein. Any further merging or reconfiguration of the articles is a matter to be taken up with each article on an individual basis. BD2412 T 05:48, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– It is not clear to me that either of these figures, both called "a king of Lydia", is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and both are mythological figures (though the former may have also been an historical figure?). I would welcome other suggestions for the new names. Note, too, that Tmolus (mythology) was very recently created by User:Markx121993, and Tmolus (disambiguation) was even more recently created by me. Also pinging User:Elinruby, who helped clean up Tmolus (mythology). Cnilep (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Cnilep I am trying to sort out this article regarding Tmolus. In my research, I came across possible 5 different characters named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, one of the Ourea was the one who judged the contest between Pan and Apollo, (2) Tmolus, king of Lydia and father of Tantalus, (3) Tmolus, king of Lydia and husband of Omphale, (4) Tmolus, king of Lydia and son of Ares and Theogone, and lastly (5) Tmolus, aka Polygonus, a son of Proteus and Torone.
It is possible that Tmolus 1 and 2 are the same for they belong in the period where they can freely interact with the gods. Meanwhile, the same can be drawn out with Tmolus 3 and 4 but I hesitate to connect this two for the latter has conflicting ideas for Tmolus 3 because 4 had a son Theoclymenus who name the mountain after his father and possibly became the king thereafter while Tmolus 3 had a wife Omphale who succeeded her husband and became entangled with the myth of Heracles.
@Cnilep what is your take on this? Markx121993 (talk) 10:47, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can find secondary sources for the following mythological figures named Tmolus:

1. Father of Tantalus [= Markx121993's 1, 2 and 3 above, and currently covered in our articles: Tmolus and Tmolus (mythology)]. See:

"The god of Mount Tmolus in Lydia, is described as the husband of Pluto (or Omphale) and father of Tantalus, and said to have decided the musical contest between Apollo and Pan. (Apollod. 2.6.3; Schol. ad Eur. Orest. 5 ; Ov. Met. 11.157.)"
  • Gantz, p. 536:
Father of Tantalus by Plouto (citing the scholion to Euripides, Orestes 5)
  • Grimal, s.v. Tmolus 1:
"Omphales's widowed husband" (citing Apollodorus 2.6.3)
  • Parada, s.v. Tmolus:
"Gave the government to his wife [Omphale] at the death of his father, the king. He was the judge of a musical contest between Pan and Apollo" (citing Ov. Met 11.156; Apollodorus, 2.6.3)

2. Son of Ares [= Markx121993's 4 above, currently covered in our article: Tmolus]. See:

  • Grimal, s.v. Tmolus 2:
"A son of Ares and Theogone, king of Lydia, who assaulted a companion of Artemis called Arripe. ..." (citing Pseudo-Plutarch, De Fluv. 7.5)

3. Son of Proteus [= Markx121993's 5 above, not currently covered in any of our articles]. See:

"A son of Proteus, was killed by Heracles. (Tzetz. ad Lyc. 124.)"

So I suggest we:

A. Move Tmolus (disambiguation) to "Tmolus"

I also think that, based upon the above sources (I haven't check the primary sourcing yet) our current article Tmolus probably incorrectly conflates Tmolus the father of Tantalus, with Tmolus the son of Ares (note Grimal considers them separately). So I also suggest we:

B. Move Tmolus to Tmolus (father of Tantalus) (since this article is mostly about the father of Tantalus)
C. Merge Tmolus (mythology) to Tmolus (father of Tantalus)
D. Create a new article Tmolus (son of Ares) (from content removed from our current article Tmolus, and above sources)
E. Plus other stuff like figuring where (if anywhere) Tmolus, the son of Proteus belongs, perhaps moving the stuff about the mountain to it's own article, and of course add appropriate entries to the disambiguation page.

Sources cited above:

  • Gantz, Timothy, Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996, Two volumes: ISBN 978-0-8018-5360-9 (Vol. 1), ISBN 978-0-8018-5362-3 (Vol. 2).
  • Grimal, Pierre, The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Wiley-Blackwell, 1996. ISBN 978-0-631-20102-1.
  • Parada, Carlos, Genealogical Guide to Greek Mythology, Jonsered, Paul Åströms Förlag, 1993. ISBN 978-91-7081-062-6.
  • Smith, William, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, London (1873). Online version at the Perseus Digital Library.

Paul August ☎ 15:39, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thank you to both Markx121993 and Paul August for their investigations. I endorse the suggestions above, that the disambiguation page move to the bare title, and that two or possibly three new pages treat the various mythological figures, though I leave it to more knowledgeable heads to figure out which content relates to which figure. Cnilep (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I concur to your suggestion:
      1. Make a separate page about the mountain Tmolus and named it as Tmolus (mountain) or Mt. Tmolus
      2. Have a set index of the characters named as Tmolus with Tmolus (Greek myth) as the page name, explaining that Tmolus (son of Ares) is maybe the same with Tmolus, the husband of Omphale
      3. We have for now, 4 separate individuals named Tmolus. (1) Tmolus, the father of Tantalus, (2) Tmolus, the son of Ares, (3) Tmolus, husband of Omphale and (4) Tmolus, son of Proteus.
      Is this alright @Cnilep @Paul August or do you have any suggestion about this? Markx121993 (talk) 23:31, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, please reread my post above. That explains what I think we should do. Paul August ☎ 23:48, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with moving Tmolus (disambiguation) - it's clearly a disambiguation page, since it deals with the butterfly, town, and mountain, as well as the mythological figures. Labelling the article Tmolus (father of Tantalus) also seems objectionable, given that in most accounts Tantalus' father is not Tmolus at all, but Zeus.
I'd like to see Tmolus (disambiguation) and Tmolus (mythology) for all the mythological figures under the name - they are all associated with Lydia and the Mountain (the mountain isn't "named after" any of them, by the by) and it's not clear to me that they are distinct figures rather than different genealogies for the same figure (as is common in Greek mythology). There doesn't seem to be enough material about Tmolus (rapist of Arippe) or Tmolus (victim of Heracles) to justify separate articles. Furius (talk) 23:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Furius: So what do think is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, i.e what should be at "Tmolus"? Paul August ☎ 00:11, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, missed this. If the discussion is still live, I think 'Tmolus (mythology)' is the primary topic and should have a hat note to 'Tmolus (disambiguation)' where the links to the town, butterfly, etc would live. My main concern is that we not have separate pages for the different Greek mythical figures bearing the name. Furius (talk) 10:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Essentially, I want to merge Tmolus and Tmolus (mythology), with Tmolus as target. Furius (talk) 10:14, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Furius: I understand now, thanks. Paul August ☎ 11:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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