Talk:Together for Catalonia (2020)

Two articles

@Impru20: why we have two articles? --Panam2014 (talk) 00:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Because they are two different things. Impru20^talk 00:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Impru20: the 2017 Together continued as party or as alliance? It should be updated. --Panam2014 (talk) 00:48, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: The 2017 one still exists as a parliamentary group and as a de jure electoral coalition formed between CDC (another "phantom" party as of currently) and the PDeCAT, with the electoral rights and public funding still nominally belonging to the latter. However, its trademark, which had been registered in July 2018 by the PDeCAT as a "phantom" party, was taken over earlier this month by Puigdemont's allies in order to be able to use its name for the new party.

It's a somewhat awkward situation in which they are now both co-existing, but oh well. I've already got all these articles updated with the most recent developments, you can find all the story on the whole situation there. Impru20^talk 00:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Impru20: so the phatom party does not exist from now or it is owned by the 2020 party? --Panam2014 (talk) 01:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: As a phantom party, it never "truly" existed: it merely comprised the trademark, registered under a fictional leader, who is a PDeCAT member, and was used in elections under the umbrella of the JxCat alliance, in a similar fashion as CDC (which has no political activity as of currently, but is still at use as another phantom party).

But that fictional party leader turned against the PDeCAT's leadership earlier this month in a coordinated effort with Puigdemont (it's still unclear whether this was fully legal), who then used the trademark as the foundation for his new party.

So, to sum it up, the phantom party was turned into the name for the 2020 party. Some of the party's structure has been provided by the National Call for the Republic (which was dissolved and merged into the new party only a few days ago) and other various aligned parties/movements. Impru20^talk 01:12, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Impru20: I have made an update attempt. Also, I think we should add the name of the fictional leaders of CDC and Junts. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:16, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted it because that's not the way these things are represented. That field only lists the registration date as a party in 2018. It was not deregistered.

The fictional leaders for CDC are already listed I think. The one for the 2020 party is of little encyclopedic value, specially considering that the overall leader is Puigdemont and that the party is about to elect a new leadership throughout the first or second week of August. Impru20^talk 01:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Impru20: but the 2020 party is registrated by the 2018 registration. --Panam2014 (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

The whole affair is already explained (and sourced) throughout the article(s). We shouldn't be confusing people even more as of currently, considering that the issue is already a though one to comprehend with so many parties and so many splits in the last years since the implosion of CiU. Impru20^talk 01:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Impru20: but now the alliance could not contest next elections because a new party have been created with 2018 registration? --Panam2014 (talk) 03:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

No, actually the alliance could contest future elections even if the new party does so separately (which does not means that it will do, but some sources have already hypothesized on the idea). Impru20^talk 09:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Confusion

How can Puigdemont, who is in exile, establish a party with its headquarters in Barcelona? And how does such party even get seats in the Catalonian government under the jurisdiction of Spain? --2001:16B8:2DA3:B000:E462:CCF:A47B:7147 (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Puigdemont is not the only member of the party, and it's the 21st century, so there's really not any issue in the party establishing its HQs in Barcelona, from where Puigdemont is only at video-call distance. OTOH, members of the Catalan government have joined the party since its establishment, so that's why it's present there. Not sure where the "confusion" is here or how this poses an issue for Spanish jurisdiction and laws. Impru20^talk 09:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

To outsiders, it is very confusing. When I first read this, I thought it was for the Catalan Republic proclamated in 2017, which in theory would still exist. It seems that Wikipedia unanimously treats it as invalid and there is no need to explicitly draw a distinction. Unlike other mostly unrecognized movements around the world, there isn't even an article named after the recent Catalan Republic. Everything is incorporated in Catalan declaration of independence, while the corresponding Catalan article is named "República Catalana (2017)". Both have their own biases and this is why it is so hard to comprehend the situation. The fact that Puigdemont's newly-founded party has seats in the actual governing entity of Catalonia while there are charges by the Spanish state against him is peculiar.--89.246.121.18 (talk) 09:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I am very sorry that you mistook an article titled as "Together for Catalonia (2020)" to mean something even close to "Catalan Republic (2017)", but I don't know how that can possibly be the article's fault... the scopes of the topics you mention are vastly different. Cheers. Impru20^talk 15:19, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Center-left to left-wing?

How can Junts be considered a center-left party, not to say a left-wing party? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.155.134.233 (talk) 10:18, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a provisional labeling that came because of how the party defined itself initially (at a time when the only sources available were those of the own party). At this point, I think it's fair to say that it's more of a catch-all, big tent party. Impru20^talk 11:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

I think it has to do with Spanish history. Franco is commonly seen as pertaining to the politcal right and as an unofficial ally to the Axis powers during WWII. His policies restricted the expression of regional identities and languages. The result was that the countermovements identified with the opposite ideology of Communism, thus the star on the Catalan independence flag and the Galician BNG logo (left-wing nationalism). However, today this creates a lot of division and exclusion in society, which is generally a trait of the right. So nowadays, you have both the Spanish loyalists and separatists calling each other fascists. In the end, "left" and "right" are just labels and unfulfillable theories, where the reality is often different. --2001:16B8:3174:F500:6C92:3823:D2F3:9309 (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Reduction of Ideologies

I propose the reduction of ideologies in the infobox. Here is my proposal:

• Catalan independence
• Populism
• Big tent

The ones removed would be incorporated into the Ideology section of the page. ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 14:51, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Intro section

For someone looking to get a quick overview of what the party is, the intro section is woefully lacking. IMHO the first sentence should tell you brielfy the political stance of the party (right, left, centre-right, whatever) or what their main aims are if they're a single-issue party. Instead, the first sentence and first two paragraphs just tell you about the origins of the party: I'm sure this is fine for someone with a working knowledge of Spanish and Catalan politics, but for the rest of us know-nothings a little prep wouldn't go amiss. Could someone with some knowledge of Spanish politics please edit that section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A461:2825:1:1C2:61A6:804D:FEDB (talk) 09:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I entirely agree. Presumably the expression "post-convergent space" means something to people who are immersed in Catalan politics, but few of the readers of English Wikipedia are likely to know to what it refers. I certainly don't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.154.110.38 (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Political position/positions

What political position or political positions should be given in the infobox? Note that some of the sources currently given in the infobox for "Big tent" don't actually say this but state a specific political position (and therefore this violates WP:SYNTH). Helper201 (talk) 13:03, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Centre-right to right-wing: This is how the article was before being changed to "Big tent" in this edit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Together_for_Catalonia_(2020)&diff=prev&oldid=1162556501

It seems the vast majority of sources in the last few years state one of these positions and sources that don't actually call the party big tent are currently being used as citations next to this claim as if they support it. Helper201 (talk) 13:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Sources:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/2/14/catalan-separatists-set-to-win-majority-in-regional-elections (centre-right)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/catalonia-regional-election-covid-voting (centre-right)

https://www.surinenglish.com/spain/ruling-proindependence-coalition-20221014143949-ntvo.html (right-wing)

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/in-rare-political-pact-socialists-back-separatist-government-s-budget-in-catalonia/2803674 (right-wing)

These are all used to cite "Big tent" despite no of these stating this (see WP:SYNTH). The other sources next to "Big tent" don't seem to be in English and I'm unsure of their reliability (feel free to investigate them too). Helper201 (talk) 13:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I think it's worth looking into the Spanish reference cited to support the "bigtent" statement. It seems that the party leadership and other sources have referred to the party as "transversal". El Nacional states: "Madrenas has described JxCat's space as ideologically transversal in the goal of independence. 'We are not closed or straitjacketed in a particular political tradition but open to all political traditions as long as it believes that independence is the way to make our country better.'", and ElDiario.es (A party without ideology? Puigdemont will try): "The former president and his supporters advocate presenting themselves as a transversal proposal that considers the left-right axis obsolete.", and Catalonia's president, Quim Torra, hass rejected such labels: "He also responded to Sabrià's allusion to the 'Catalan center-right' and denied that JpC is located in these ideological coordinates: 'We do not want to occupy this political space'". (ABC).

While I don't think that the "centre-right" description should be disregarded, I don't think a "big tent" description should be dismissed entirely either, as this seems to be the purpose of the party. --NoonIcarus (talk) 08:15, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: I definitely think that the change to "centre-right to right-wing" now jars with the text in the article which talks of the party moving to the centre or centre-left. The sources in that section could be used to justify the "big tent" label. ([1]) ([2]) --ChristyMcMorrow (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2023 (UTC)