Talk:Tokusatsu

Naming

Respectfully suggest that because Magma Taishi was never known in English as Ambassador Magma, it makes no sense to force Space Giants to be Ambassador Magma. In English, the show was most widely known as Space Giants, this is an English-language wiki, therefore Space Giants is the appropriate name of this article. The Hokkaido Crow 29 June 2005 06:57 (UTC)

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With all due respect, whether you know the show as Ambassador Magma, The Space Giants, Space Avenger, Monsters from Outer Space, etc., there's no denying that the character Ambassador Magma at least had a history.

One can always learn about The Space Giants through Ambassador Magma, just as one can learn about, say, Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot through Giant Robo or Battle of the Planets through Gatchaman. Ryuuseipro

Japanese series with name changes are in an unusual position because due to the way fans use original sources, titles and characters are often more widely known by their non-American names in America than by their American names (cf. Usagi_Tsukino). Google shows 862 hits for "Ambassador Magma" and 853 for "Space Giants" (including several false hits). Ken Arromdee 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Racism/cultural differences

I will explain some of the changes I made in the section formerly called "Anti-Japanese sentiment." While I don't dispute that anti-Japanese sentiment and racism has existed in various forms, particularly in the US, I did not find that the information in the paragraph conclusively demonstrated this. The paragraph really describes the practice of adding familiar characters to increase the appeal in the target market, which happens on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Consumers simply want characters and settings that they can identify with. That is an important thing to describe, but it does not necessarily equate to racism or anti-Japanese sentiments. Here are some other things I felt it necessary to change:

• Removed language regarding World War 2. While it is probably true that lingering tensions remained at this time, nothing in the paragraph supported this assumption.
• We cannot say that Americanization died down after the popularity of Godzilla and then demonstrate instances of Americanization still going strong after Godzilla. That doesn't make sense.
• The movies were really Westernized, not just Americanized. This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing). Unmentioned in this article were also attempts to penetrate Europe and Latin America.
• It is just not realistic to say that studios consider east Asian actors non-bankable. Studios have been making a ton of money in martial-arts and fantasy films since the 1970's, for example.
• Removed Perry Mason reference as it is superfluous to this article and is found in the relevant linked article.

All in all it's a good article and I enjoyed reading it.

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Your revised version of my article is commendable. Except for one thing:

• "This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing)."

That was for Ultraman. For Ultraman: Towards the Future, Tsuburaya Productions was not trying to penetrate the Australian market, they were essentially trying to penetrate the North American market by way of Australia. Ultraman was already very popular Down Under. Ryuuseipro

Unequal POV

Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article. The author(s) are obviously sympathizing with the Tokusatsu creators way too much, labeling America as cynical and acting like these movies were bullied out of the limelight in the United States. The movies are well known among most of the population, and they are well liked, if for different reasons. With all due respect, you can't pretend a film is up there with Citizen Kane when it primarily relies on special effects and the special effects aren't too good. The Tokusatsu films are an important part of cinematic history, but they aren't any messiah.--67.184.163.248 23:48, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Ikiroid

Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article.

Well, why don't you do something about it? You know, you can edit it yourself. I can't be the only one working on this article (and yes, I did the article you criticized, which another person here thoughtfully edited for me). Let's put our heads together.--Ryuuseipro 10:32pm, 11 November 2005

Then again, the BBC's Doctor Who successfully scared children for over 20 years with similar special effects. Somebody who knows more than I do might want to tie in tokusatsu to its worldwide legacy? Lisa Paul 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with 67.184.163.248. The section "Perception of Tokusatsu in America" contains a lot of criticism of said perception instead of merely describing it, and the criticism is not attributed to anyone but instead stated as if it were absolutely right and the popular perception wrong. I think it would be better if this section were split in half, one describing what the popular peception is (was?) and then the counter-reaction to it. Besides, arguing who's right or wrong about the assessment of the quality (which is higly subjective) of some film type is not interesting in a reference work such as an encyclopedia. What one would rather read is a description of each POV, the reasons behind them and when and where and by whom such POV is held. The presentation (including emphasis) should also be organized accordingly.

Also, some of the language is not just POV, but rather unencyclopedic. "However, American fans like August Ragone and reporter Steve Ryfle have enlightened a skeptical media on this subject countless times, and people were profounded." Excuse me? Aside from the peculiar verbing of "profound", this is way too profuse for an encyclopedia :-) "enlightened" and "countless times" are both out, and so is "profounded" whether it's supposed to be "enlightened", "bewildered", "blown out of water" or whatever. Also wording like "Yes, some of these superheroes are altruistic, like" is not good, because it has "I'm trying to sell you this point and don't have enough convincing facts so I'm trying to make you a believer by speaking persuasively" written all over it. The normal policy is to describe the facts (including each POV if there are many, as there seem to be here) and let the reader make his own conclusions without preaching. 130.233.22.111 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Tone

While I'm going to steer clear of much of the controversy regarding this page, I will suggest omitting the use of exclamation marks. If this is to have the proper tone for a reference piece, then some of the enthusiasm implied within just doesn't work.

or even tokusatsu kantoku (特撮監督), which is Japanese for, appropriately enough, "special effects director"!

We're here to inform people of the concept, not convince them of its viability as a medium. Wikipedia is not an advertising medium - it is intended to be impartial and factual. Please always keep that in mind.

So now I return to adding the last touches (for tonight) on the Karaoke Revolution song list, in which the Japanese "anime songs" compilation inexplicably includes tokusatsu themes (and before anyone goes gallivanting off to blame the Americans, it was Konami who perpetrated that themselves). ^_^

Cheers!

Miwa 08:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Major cleanup needed

1. In-line citations please, first of all.
2. Please eliminate weasel words. Stuff like One of the things that Japanese live-action fantasy is usually criticized for by non-fans in America is not sourced. Who is saying this? All of this should be sourced.
3. Fandom is not relevent here. It appears that some fan films are notable, but a major part of the "criticism" and the fandom sections appear to be pits so people can bash tokusatsu.
4. Tone is an issue here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia here to report facts, without any loaded language. "Sadly, the jargon suitmation is mostly extinct today" is not necessary. Just state that it's no longer used.

This article has six templates. I'd like to get it down to at least three. Hbdragon88 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I almost destroyed the newly-renamed "United Sates view" because all it looks like is a pit of whiny complaints about Super Sentai vs. Power Rangers. Hbdragon88 07:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Tag overload

I'm really tempted to add something along the lines of the following to the page...

-- Schnee (cheeks clone) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Another tag

Merge, the most sensible so far, although speedy deletion probably wouldn't be out of place. The only reason to have this as a separate page is as a peculiar kind of fancruft as one-upmanship.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Merging with Special effects is essentially a bad idea. Tokusatsu is the word specifically used to describe the Japanese suitmation or superhero shows. This article needs clean-up, but definitely not merging.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

What on earth makes you the authority?FasterPussycatWooHoo 14:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an authority, but I am part of a WikiProject dedicated to this genre. Tokusatsu means special effects, but it is something entirely unique.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

And the Japanese Wikipedia has a different article on what we consider to be special effects at ja:SFX and an article on tokusatsu at ja:特撮. In fact, every Wikipedia that has an article on tokusatsu has a separate article on special effects, the former referring to shows like Kamen Rider and Power Rangers and the latter to the techniques used within them.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

He's not an authority, but he does seem to know far more than you do about this topic. Tokusatsu, despite being a translation of "special effects", does not mean the same thing. Tokusatsu is an incredibly broad topic with a large ammount of significant material available — one of the most popular genres of entertainment in Japan cannot be considered a suptopic of a broad area like special effects. Under no circumstances can this be merged.--SB | T 23:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Tokusatsu is a genre; special effects are the techniques. Compare the relationship between anime and animation. Honestly, there is no basis for a merge. --Keitei (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Ryulong, Sean, and Keitei. Tokusatsu is its own genre, with its own content. Yes, it is named after the techniques used in its production, but that doesn't make it synonymous with those techniques. jgp ^T_C 02:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The 'arguments' above consist of reiteration. I also disagree that there are significant differences between anime and animation; certainly the latter covers a far wider stylistic range and anime could be described as a subset derived from the development of particular forms of mass production (which are also found in animation from other countries, whether the USA, Korea, or anywhere else making significant amounts for the mass market); this definition would exclude Miyazaki (who indeed excludes himself, though no doubt his western fans who see their devotion to his work as demonstrating what they like to see as an otaku-like interest in anime wouldn't want to know this).

Likewise men in monster suits and miniature work are hardly unique to a particular national tradition. Yes, the Ultraman tradition represents as much of a speciality as Marvel/DC superheroes, and certainly deserves a specific article, but this is not the same as Tokusatu. Ergo, Tokusatu is not a genre but a particular usage of particular sets of special effects.

Sean Black should not be so quick to assume what people do and don't know about; my original comment may have been sharp but was in response to an I-will-not-be-questioned tone, and I certainly know enough to contribute to this article. However, I strongly disagree with the classification and crufty tone and thus won't for now.

Usage on the Japanese wikipedia does not have any bearing. The large number of separate articles on Japan-related topics that could well be included under the more general headings is definitely a fan-driven form of exceptionalism.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why won't you listen to us that "tokusatsu" and "special effects" are two different things? Tokusatsu is the name given to television shows like Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, and Power Rangers, etc. Special effects are the techniques that are used to portray the storylines within the series such as Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, etc. Tokusatsu is a tradition as a style and as a genre. Tokusatsu is to live-action as anime is to animation.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, Tokusatsu is the term for Japanese live action productions, not special effects as a technical term. If your viewpoint is like that, I can only conclude that you translated the term to literally. Its a genre, and does not mean what you consider Special Effects. Floria L 22:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm listening, but not hearing any argument that makes sense. If you read my comments, you will see that I agree with Ryulong that Ultraman, Super Sentai, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers etc. form a (narrow) genre, with people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms, etc. However, Godzilla is also tokusatu; this is quite a different genre.

Even worse for the theory, a movie like Casshern, if you've heard of it, a bad movie with some great effects and good scenes but not for children, is also commonly listed as tokusatu or tokusatu plus live action. Casshern is all live action plus CG. In the same search I find a page where a Japanese fan lists Tarkovsky's very serious SF movies in the list of tokusatu movies he likes. I think you are confused about the meaning of tokusatu because New Type's sister magazine mainly covers the Ultraman genre; at least, that's nearly always on the cover.

The Japanese WP article on Ultraman calls him one of Japan's giant metamorphic heroes or giant body-changing heroes, which seems reasonable as a genre name.

Every time the word tokusatu is used in that article, it simply means special effects. Anyway, that is not really relevant since this is the english-language wikipedia.FasterPussycatWooHoo 13:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

But when the Japanese word "tokusatsu" is used in every language including English, it refers to these shows. These shows are not a "narrow" genre. Category:Tokusatsu will disagree with you. And there are other shows that are not for children, but are considered tokusatsu, and it utilizes a good amount of CG and live action. This would be GARO, additionally, Lion-Maru G, which uses a lot of South Park-like comedic schticks, is also tokusatsu not for children. The name used for the "narrow" genre of shows about "people in tight suits wearing funny masks or mask/helmet combinations, certain kinds of poses, certain kinds of futuristic military uniforms" and Godzilla are all considered tokusatsu.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello again. Your reply is not relevant to any of my earlier comments. You have either not read them or didn't understand them. If you don't understand, you could always ask instead of trying to give orders. Your reply is also incomprehensible (please look it up in a dictionary if you don't understand the word) and illogical. Please try to answer the points. By the way Giant shape-shifting heroes would also be possible.FasterPussycatWooHoo 14:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"Giant shape-shifting heroes" is a reference to Kyodai Heroes, which is a subgenre of tokusatsu. Again, you're astoundingly uninformed.--SB | T 15:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please listen to us, as we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are. Tokusatsu is not the same as special effects. Special effects are what you see in tokusatsu shows and movies. The Ultraman, Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Metal Heroes, Kyodai Hero, Henshin Hero, Godzilla, and other series use special effects techniques in filming. This is what makes them tokusatsu productions. The Japanese Wikipedia even makes a clear distinction at the beginning of ja:特撮.

Tokusatsu can mean mainly three things:

1. Special effects (ja:SFX)
2. Movies and television programs that use special effects, which this article discusses
3. A Japanese rock band ja:特撮 (バンド)

The English Wikipedia article also deals with these meanings (save for the last one), mainly giving the history of Eiji Tsurabaya's contributions to the genre, some of the techniques utilized in early productions, and some examples, and unique things within the genre. If you disagree with myself, Sean Black, Jgp, and other people, you are free to discuss your points at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tokusatsu.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Special effects (abbreviated SPFX or SFX) are used in the film, television, and entertainment industry to realize scenes, such as space travel, that cannot be achieved by normal means. Why in the world would anyone in their right mind merge a genre of live-action Japanese entertainment, encompassing many subgenres of film and television into that article? It's not even relevant. And special effect furthermore does not need this information. Additionally, five people have responded to the merge request and none of them thought it was anywhere near a good idea. This article is its own article, and it has its own content, and it doesn't need to be put into any other article. This continued arguing is just disruptive.

(As an unrelated note, I think it's rather fanboy-ish to insist this article is about the Japanese word for special effects. It's about the genre, and it's ridiculously purist to insist that loanwords retain their original meanings. English Wikipedia, English usage.) --Keitei (talk) 21:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

As well as demonstrating his ignorance with Sean Black his misinterpretation of the terms I put up, the boy certainly finds it hard to be civil. There is no such genre as tokusatu, except among deluded fan-boys and fan-girls who think everything from Japan must be treated with reverence and awe. A science fiction movie is a science fiction movie, etc.

Ryūlóng's quote from the japanese wikipedia is pretty well correct, but says nothing about your imaginary special genre; it just says "movies and television programs that have special effects". Also, we are much more knowledgeable in this area of "Japanese fancruft" (as you once put it) than you are is incredibly rude and presumptious. How on earth do you know what I am and aren't knowledgeable about?

As well as an inanely pretentious username, User:Keitei also has trouble with civility. You have been taken in by an American marketing gimmick.

In any case, the page is a mess, part is about special effects and part is about the imaginary genre, it's full of odd PoV, etc.

Even worse, just about everything on this page is covered on multiple others.FasterPussycatWooHoo 15:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest some time perusing WP:KETTLE before you start tossing about calls of incivility FasterPussycatWooHoo. I'd also suggest you spend some time reading WP:POINT. Adding a speedy deletion tag to an article where there is no speedy deletion rationale isn't helpful. If you are serious about wanting this article deleted, WP:AFD is the correct way to do this.--Isotope23 17:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you think my name is pretentious. What that has to do with tokusatsu, I don't know. --Keitei (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and "Movies and television programs that use special effects, which this article discusses" is a direct translation of something off of the Japanese article. And the English article does the same.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 09:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Ryūlóng, I read the Japanese article myself (unfortunately I can do that) and agreed with you; if you'd bother to read anything you find inconvenient or disagree with, you would have seen it a few lines above. As I said a few lines above, it doesn't say a word about this imaginary genre, just "movies and television programs that have special effects", as I said above.FasterPussycatWooHoo 09:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Mediation Required

Mediation is required for Tokusatsu. User:FasterPussycatWooHoo is certainly correct in stating that there are at least a dozen other Anime topics covering the same material here, and as it is, Tokusatsu is a duplication of/or being text duplicated in other parts of Wikipedia. I realize that the people here have strong opinions of what Tokusatsu means. However, a Blog entry as a reference certainly doesn't have any credibility to me, and it indicates to me a serious lack of credible citations that prove that the current encyclopedic entry is verifiable, WP:NPOV, and not just a general belief. I will be happy to support keeping Tokusatsu in a cleaned-up form if suitable citations can be provided, but I haven't seen them yet. Gohiking 17:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is a goal of Wikipedia:WikiProject Tokusatsu to work on cleaning up all articles we can that our topic covers, but I doubt that anime discusses the work of Eiji Tsurubaya or suitmation is covered anywhere else but their own articles. We will be working on improving this article, and it will be to a point that it discusses what makes it unique (which FasterPussyCatWooHoo does not appear to see).—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Improving things is a better direction to take than degrading them to the point of uselessness. --Masamage 22:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

a dozen other Anime topics covering the same material here — anime is animated, that which is discussed on this page is live action; thus an overlap is unlikely. :] --Keitei (talk) 23:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't add {{unreferenced}} tag

If you look towards the bottom of this article, you'll notice a ==References== section. These are the references. Therefore, an {{unreferenced}} tag is uncalled for. I'm sure that all the editors working to rewrite and improve this article are aware that it needs inline citations and better referencing, but a huge tag at the top does nothing. If you want to help, please add {{fact}}s where you think something should be cited instead. Cheers! --Keitei (talk) 19:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

A references section at the bottom is entirely pointless unless readers know what fact comes from which source (so that they can verify it too). Because of a complete lack of any in-line citations, I don't know what has been cited or not, which sections still need verification and which do not. If I were to tag the article with {{fact}}, nearly every sentence would be tagged, which woudl be even more disruptive and less helpful than the "huge tag at the top." Hbdragon88 22:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Removed section

I've removed the following section from the main page to here because it is confusing, contradictory, and not particularly encyclopedic. It also isn't verified or really important, for that matter. The first paragraph says that there's a "misconception" that "tokusatsu refers mainly to Japanese superhero shows" whereas in Japan it means something different. For one, is this a misconception or merely a loanword with a slightly different English meaning? Or does it mean that tokusatsu refers to all Japanese live action with special effects shows, not just superheroes (as the whole world ostensibly thinks)? For two, sources? How do we know this is a widespread misconception? The second paragraph says that this confusion dates back to an example where the word sentai is misused to mean tokusatsu. This doesn't follow. And again, no sources. If someone can reconcile these problems, feel free to put the section back.

==Confusion outside Japan==

There is a misconception in countries outside Japan (including the United States) that the term tokusatsu refers mainly to Japanese superhero TV shows (including - but not limited to - the Ultra Series, Kamen Rider series and Super Sentai Series). However, the term has always been used in Japan to describe all live action productions, Japanese or otherwise, that feature special effects.

The confusion dates back to the early 1990s, when Ben Dunn created a short-lived fanzine called Sentai: The Journal of Asian S/F & Fantasy. This was one of the few American fanzines in the wake of the Power Rangers craze that covered live-action Japanese fantasies. This magazine proved to be so popular that people began labeling all Japanese live-action superhero shows as "sentai".

--Keitei (talk) 20:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

So why aren't you calling it Sentai instead of the word you are trying to import/loan?FasterPussycatWooHoo 18:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Because we don't trust unverified comments which go against all other precedent? --Keitei (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

And we know better. "Sentai" is a Japanese word meaning "squadron," "fighting squad," or "task force" and is used in the Super Sentai Series, from which Power Rangers comes from. Tokusatsu is a Japanese word that literally means "special effects" but it is used in all languages to describe shows in the Super Sentai Series, the Godzilla films, the Ultraman...stuff, etc.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 20:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"And we know better": well, I won't characterise your reply for obvious reasons (since you'll run off and request a block) and am quite aware of the meaning of Super Sentai. "Tokusatu ... used in all languages" is simply wrong—despite what you so want to believe, it is not even used that way in Japanese (or English).

Keitei makes a similar mistake with "all other precedent". Which precedents?

people began labeling all Japanese live-action superhero shows as "sentai"

is grammatically incorrect (not surprising for someone who claims to be "anal" about grammar—sorry, it's on your user page) but is true, at least for many (probably most) US fans. If this word has become acceptable with a wider meaning than its original, why not use it? It would be better than desperately trying to work out some way of claiming that tokusatu has a meaning beyond "special effects".FasterPussycatWooHoo 09:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't write that? I removed it from the page because it was unsourced. If you can find a source, go ahead and put it back, but otherwise it's assumed to be false. --Keitei (talk) 12:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

ca:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) és la forma d'anomenar els efectes especials en japonès, associat també a series d'acció real de ciencia ficció, fantasia o horror, tant en TV com pel·lícula.

es:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu es la abreviación de Tokushu Houka Satsuei, que literalmente significa "Fotografía especial", es un género televisivo japonés, que trata de series de acción y super héroes. Este género es demasiado antiguo, y ha perdurado durante mucho tiempo, hasta ahora.

fr:Tokusatsu : Les tokusatsu (contraction de tokubetsu satsuei qui signifie « effets spéciaux »), sont des séries télévisées japonaises riches en effets spéciaux. Elles dérivent des films de kaijû, les films de monstres, comme Godzilla.

id:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) adalah istilah dalam bahasa Jepang untuk special effects dan seringkali digunakan untuk menyebut film sci-fi/fantasi/horor live-action produksi Jepang.

pl:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (jap. 特撮) to termin, którym Japończycy określają efekty specjalne. Na Zachodzie pod tą nazwą znane są przede wszystkim filmy i seriale aktorskie, w których wykorzystana zostaje spora ilość takich efektów.

pt:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu é a abreviatura da expressão japonesa jissha tokusatsu, que pode ser traduzido como "filme de efeitos especiais". Atualmente é sinônimo de filme ou série live-action de superherói produzidos no Japão, com bastante ênfase nos efeitos especiais mesclando varias técnicas como: pirotecnia, computação gráfica, modelismo, entre outras.

sv:Tokusatsu : Tokusatsu (特撮) Termen komer av begreppet tokushu satsuei (特殊撮影) som betyder specialeffekter, och används om filmer och tv-serier som innehåller mycket specialeffekter. Utanför Japan används ordet främst om japanska superhjälteserier, som Ultraman och Kamen Rider.

Looks like more than Japanese and English to me. --Keitei (talk) 12:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

A bunch of links to other wikis where people with the same interests in promoting the misuse of this word prove nothing and certainly don't constitute an authoritative set of sources.FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

FasterPussycat... I'm not sure that all of your comments are completely helpful in this matter. Rather than suggesting that people are going to run off and request blocks, why not work with them to make the article better? I believe you've been asked about this before, if I am not mistaken. ++Lar: t/c 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are mistaken, I've never been asked to help or offer an opinion and, in violation of WP policy, have not received one sensible or logical response to any of the points I've made. The article is a blatant attempt to use wikipedia as a vehicle for propaganda in the form of another needless loan-word. Since it is a violation of WP:NPOV (as the claims made regarding the validity of the usage in Japanese and other languages are heavily POV and, as I've amply demonstrated, wrong), WP:V (most of the text), WP:NOT (on numerous WP:NOT points) and probably WP:NOR, it simply should not exist.FasterPussycatWooHoo 11:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no propaganda here. This is a word that literally means special effects in Japanese but is used to define television series and movies that utilize special effects. It is a word that is deeply rooted in its fan community, and it has been used longer than this Wikipedia article. There are two Japanese language image boards that utilize "toku" and "tokusatsu" in their subdomains for the boards, http://www.101fwy.net/tokua/, http://www.101fwy.net/tokub/, and http://gazo14.chbox.jp/tokusatsu/. 2channel has http://tv9.2ch.net/sfx/ and http://bubble5.2ch.net/rsfx/ (yes, they use SFX, but the links to both pages use the kanji 特撮 read as tokusatsu and both have the same sort of posts in them as the other three). The books that Sean Black found through Amazon and Google use the word "tokusatsu" along with "kaiju" and "sentai." And these are published works about this part of the Japanese cultural complex.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 20:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• Martinez, Dolores P. The Worlds of Japanese Popular Culture: Gender, Shifting Boundaries, and Global Cultures. ISBN 0521637295
• Allison, Anne. Millennial Monsters: Japanese Toys and the Global Imagination. ISBN 0520245652
• Craig, Timothy J. Japan Pop!: Inside the World of Japanese Popular Culture ISBN 0765605600

So I suppose these three books, all of which use and define the term "tokusatsu", as well as discuss and analyse the concept, are also part of this "propogandist push" ? To be honest, the only who seems to be pushing their viewpoint (which is, apparently, that English should not use words from the Japanese language) here is you.--SB | T 20:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

FP: Earlier, you claimed that this was all the work of a "little clique" and that this was about adding an import to the English language [1]. Now, you're claiming that this has nothing to do with the English language and that this is the work of a much larger group of people than a "little clique". Sounds like someone is twisting the facts to push an agenda. jgp ^T_C 20:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, starting with Ryulong's statement, once again you are using extremely fannish Japanese sites etc. to justify your (and the others') attempt to push your PoV that this is a valid and generally used loan word. If it's a valid loan word, why do you have to cite Japanese sites? Even then, as I said in an earlier comment that you all wilfully ignored, major media outlets for the relevant fandom in Japan do not use the word in the sense you claim, but rather to mean special effects, certainly including, for example, G-Savior (eliminated below) and even Star Wars.

Also stop trying to be condescending by pretending that I can't read what I've made it apparent that I can. This is covered by WP policy as incivility. Perhaps this is because of reliance on machine translation by people here?

As for cheap academics making part or all of their careers from Japanese pop. culture, they tend to be very imperceptive and misinformed most of the time, particularly since most have no facility in the language, approach things from a privileged position where they have no connection with ordinary fans, ignore the actual range of material and negative or boring points because so much is terribly banal and the real goal is further funding, and have no genuine interest in the topic except as a career base.

In any case, I very much doubt that any of them use the word in quite the same way as this little clique is trying to enforce. Care to provide quotations in context from all three?

My comments to an admin. on my talk page have nothing to do with you, and your interpretation of them makes no sense. Perhaps you know something I don't? Do we have people getting salaries for working on this and similar crufty pages? Someone is indeed twisting the facts to push an agenda—jgp's comment is pure sophistry, the twisters are the project supporters, as can be amply confirmed by looking at the history of the discussion page and the article.FasterPussycatWooHoo 14:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Updated series list

I've translated the remaining Japanese titles into their respective English titles (using the official U.S. release title where able) and linked them to the appropriate articles if they exist. I've kept the links to the Japanese pages for movies that don't have a corresponding English article in hopes that perhaps someone will translate them and add them to Wikipedia. -Jacquismo 01:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

G-Savoir?

I've removed G-Savior from the list. It in no way reflects the Tokusatsu genre. The only special effects in it are CG and the standard theatrical affairs. Also, the movie was written and filmed in Canada. If you were to leave it on the list, you'd have no reason to not add other moves to the list, like The Marix, X-Men, or even shows like Heroes or The 4400. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.201.100 (talk) 15:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Photo

I was just thinking, with this dispute going on over the significance of tokusatsu, perhaps a better image could be used that better represents what this is? Such as perhaps a photo of Godzilla (due to recognition in the English speaking world?), or perhaps a group shot of some heroes in costume from a convention or team-up special? There's probably a good group shot of Kamen Rider(s) next to Metal Heroes and Sentai from a Toei festival or similar. Perhaps this might spark a battle between people who want to see "their favorite" pictured, but still I think a colorful photo of live-action footage is certainly more representative of a live-action genre than an almost monochrome cartoon is. Despite the fact it's of a sentai hero, it is rather misleading to someone unfamiliar with the term. The caption is also somewhat misleading, as only one series out of dozens feature "rangers". Theredcomet2000 02:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, the problem is one of fair use. If you can find a better image that is free, please put it up. Screencaps, promotional images, and copyrighted characters would need a very good fair use rationale, and just any random image would be hard to argue fair use for. Not that we shouldn't try, but it'd be difficult... The image we have up is boring, but it's free. (And if you can fix the caption to be more correct, please please do) --Keitei (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a few images that may be used. One depicts Ultraman Jack, Kamen Rider Stronger, Kamen Rider V3, Battle Fever J, Supaidā-Man, and (for some reason) someone in a Doraemon suit, and I had thought up of a fair use rationale for it.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I hear you, Keiei, trust me. I'm sure it's difficult to discern what is truly "free", especially with a possible language barrier with the property owners (I certainly would find it difficult to ask them). However, some of the justifications of Fair use specify that it comes into play when necessary to give the required amount of information for understanding, and contribute significantly to the article. I don't think fan-art/clip-art gives the required amount of information for recognition of the contents of the article. It assumes that the reader knows what a Sentai/Power Ranger looks like, and that the icon is a simplistic representation requiring a bit of imagination to visualize the real deal.

I would think this would be justification for a reduced resolution image taken from something. Part of the fair use rationale (#7) is that it should be in more than one article, and suitmation and henshin lack images also. Kill two birds with one stone, to help the justification? Maybe a hero for Tokusatsu and Henshin (since it does describe henshin heroes), or a monster for Tokusatsu and Suitmation? Ryulong's image sounds great, as long as it can be justified. I'm hardly an expert on fair use and legal red-tape, but these are just my thoughts.

As for the caption, I couldn't think of anything because the image just doesn't quite fit the subject in my opinion. Theredcomet2000 06:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Anglicised Spider-Man's name back. Its ridiculous to take an English name and write it down according to its Japanese transliteration. That's almost like taking my name (Derek) and writing it down as it would be translitered in Japanese (Dereku). Its unneccessary -- my name is still Derek and Spider-Man is still Spider-Man. Drumpler 12:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

And I have reverted it. The character in Japan is "Supaidā-Man" and its use here is being done to show how some portions of American culture have influenced that of Japan's in this aspect. That and it looks cool.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 20:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I can definently respect a difference in opinion, but when it was brought over here, it was called "Spider-Man" (the Spider-Man (tokusatsu) article even has a picture of the box set and "Spider-Man" is clearly used). The issue is one of target audience. Those who are reading this page are English speakers (hence its on the English Wikipedia section). You can definently show the transliteration next to the name if you wish, but most English speakers are not going to know who "Supaidā-Man" is (once more, this is a transliteration). I'll retain it as you have it to see what everyone else says. It really is a minor issue and one I'm not gonna sweat.

BTW, whether or not something is "cool" is not the issue (although I myself do a lot of things because they're cool -- just not on Wikipedia ;)). When writing, one needs to consider one's core audience. I'm a huge anime fan and Tokusatsu comes from more or less the same culture. Should I go through and change established English names of anime to their Japanese originals? Most people would have no clue what I'm talking about if I did so. Once more, English audience. And again, "Supaidā-Man" is just a transliteration of "Spider Man". Drumpler 23:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, no one has really mentioned anything about the use of "Supaidā-Man" (the romanicized katakana name) vs. "Spider-Man" (the transliterated/translated name) other than you. While using "Supaidā-Man" does seem a bit unprofessional, it's being used aesthetically to show the effect of synchretism (not that Battles Cossack and France with their flags plastered on their chests don't do). But if enough people think that it's stupid looking and unprofessional, I would not object to changing the piped link's text.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope you're not getting the wrong ideas about my motivation. What I would suggest then, as a bit of a compromise, is that maybe Spider-Man be typed next to it? The reason I mention this is because if someone does a search on "Spider-Man", they might find this page interesting. It would only bring interest to the page and maybe get them into the Japanese series. :) So it could be rephrased as "Supaidā-Man (Spider-Man)". Does that sound reasonable? Drumpler 13:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Another reason I mention this is because I'm a huge anime AND Spider-Man fan. I think if one were to make the edit I suggested, it would get them just as interested in this live-action TV series as I am, just by stumbling upon this page. :) Drumpler 13:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"Supaidā-Man" doesn't look at all cool, it just looks like fannish show-offery. This is the English wikipedia. Please see the recent debate regarding Satsuma-ware (correct) vs. the alternative. The same standards should apply here.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been nearly two months since this issue was brought up and between now and then it has been resolved completely. Don't be like a forum newbie and bring up old topics that are essentially over with.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 14:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Criticism Section

Just wondering, why is there a "Criticism" section? There's not even anything there! All it does is take up space. Besides, when there was actually stuff in it, it was, as Hbdragon88 said, just "pits so people can bash tokusatsu." So, since this section serves no purpose anyway, I'm going to delete it. Cabbage-Sama 16:45, 13 February 2008

We haven't written it yet. Leave it until we get content.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I love how you criticized me for deleting the "Criticism" section, just to delete it yourself later. God, I love wikipedia. Cabbage-Sama 17:21, 1 September 2008

It was several months, and then it kept being filled with unsourced criticism. I deleted it because it brought no good.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:33, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

"Whom" tags

Following on from the somewhat agressively named accusations on the Administrators' noticeboard:

It surprised me to find vigorous opposition to my normal and literal use of "whom" tags in this article. The WP:WEASEL style guideline states: "Most critically, editors should not use passive voice constructs to avoid attributing words or actions to the appropriate speaker or subject, or to omit any other important detail from a sentence." The "whom" tag simply asks for more detail: who did or commissioned some dubbing from Japanese to English? for example. If such dubbing gets a mention, it has some importance/notability. Our encyclopedia can do without the conventional assumptions that such things "just happen", and give credit where appropriate or known. The tag provides a co-operative means whereby knowledgeable and less knowledgeable editors can collaborate in enriching and expanding articles, no? -- HoundsOfSpring (talk) 06:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This does make more sense then.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Surely tokusatsu?

Hi, while reading about Alternative universes I came across the term tokusatsu written in plain text in the article. Easily identifiable as a non-English word, and probably Japanese, I searched Wikipedia and ended up here.

This term should be in italics everywhere. According to MOS:Ety:

• "Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have everyday use in non-specialised English."
• "If looking for a good rule of thumb, do not italicize words that appear in Merriam-Webster Online."

I prefer to post on the talk page before the edit, please pay attention to the phrase everyday use in non-specialised English, so whereas anime and manga have now thoroughly entered the mainsteream, tokusatsu has not. Captain Screebo (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's going to cause a lot of work.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:10, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll do it, I just didn't want anyone to get all upset and revert it for no good reason. Captain Screebo (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I mean across the project itself.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:21, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, yes, it's a real mess, as I have been to visit Godzilla and Suitmation for example. As I noted above, according to MOS:Ety, foreign words should be in italics, your articles will never reach an acceptable standard if they are peppered with lots of Japanese words that are unfamiliar to everyday English users and are not italicised. So kabuki, geisha, anime, seppuku and sushi are all acceptable and well-known Japanese words, tokusatsu, kaiju and hentai are not.

I take it that you are heavily involved with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Tokusatsu page, maybe it would be a good idea to post some guidelines for the other contributors so as they can clean up the articles of this portal as they go?

The articles seem to be suffering from wrong text formatting in places: for example Spider-Man (the character) is fine, but the series, or the comic book, should be The Amazing Adventures of Spider-Man.

The articles are also suffering from link overkill: firstly, you do not need to link to the relevant article every time you mention the same character, once is enough; secondly, linking everyday words like set, live-action, or South Korea for that matter, is unnecessary, detracts from the readability of the article and does not provide any useful insight into the subject of the article at hand.

Finally there seems to be a lot of completely unreferenced information and some lists that drag on, making it hard to read.

Sorry, I just saw your edit, there is no justification for linking Super Sentai every time that it is mentioned in the article, to take one example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captain Screebo (talk • contribs) 00:44, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Tattooed Teenage Alien Fighters From Beverly Hills (1994-95, USA)

@Ryulong: Okay, let's talk. This original American show was a ripoff of Power Rangers in response to that show's popularity when it first aired in the USA. First off: It's a bad show with terrible production values and bad writing. BUT: It's the FIRST American attempt to create an original Sentai-type show, although I'm not sure if there have been any other attempts since. The show's Tokusatsu/Super Sentai influence should be obvious to anybody who's watched the show. 4 young heroes transform into color-themed masked costumed heroes on a giant scale to acrobatically with rubbery costumed monsters. So it deserves some recognition as a "Toku-influenced" production, as much as Chinese "Armored Hero" or Indonesian "Bima Satria Garuda" (neither of which would win an Emmy award for writing BTW) This show is not: An adaptation of an existing Toku series — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabadoh (talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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