Talk:Tolui/GA1

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GA Review[edit]

Passed. — Golden talk 10:25, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Golden (talk · contribs) 19:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be reviewing this article. — Golden talk 19:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead & Infobox[edit]

  • Tolui was also the husband of Sorghaghtani Beki - Can we include a brief introduction to Sorghaghtani? For example: "Tolui was also married to the Keraite princess Sorghaghtani Beki."
    • None of the other figures bar Genghis need introduction in the first paragraph, and indeed Sorghaghtani is very difficult to define—"Mongol stateswoman" would match better than "Kereit" princess, but still not perfect. I'm going to decline.
  • after her uncle Toghrul's death in 1203 - How is this related to Tolui and Sorghaghtani's marriage?
    • The whole phrase is a bit out of place. I'm going to remove it.
  • but his distinguished service - The word "but" may not be the best choice here. Perhaps "and" would be a better fit?
    • Done
  • early the following year - English is not my first language, so it might just be me, but could you explain what this means?
    • Early in 1221
  • Per MOS:OVERLINK, I don’t think you should wikilink the following words: arrogance, generosity, curse, alcoholism, and poisoned.
    • All except alcoholism delinked.
  • Shouldn't Jami al-tawarikh be italicised in the infobox?
    • Yes it should.

Life[edit]

  • "Tolui" may have been a title which Genghis intended to replace the pre-imperial epithet "otchigin" - Is a word missing here?
    • I don't believe so; I've amended it slightly, does that help?
      • That's not where the problem was. I think I just expected a "with" after "otchigin". — Golden talk
        • I don't think that would make grammatical sense, but that may just be me.

Life under Genghis (c. 1191–1227)[edit]

  • You don't need to wikilink kidnapping.
    • Done.
  • Italicise Jami' al-tawarikh.
  • Briefly introduce Rashid al-Din.
    • Both done.
  • According to the Secret History - I am unsure about shortening work titles like this. Are there any guidelines about this?
    • Very common in RS. It's annoying to write out the "of the Mongols" all the time. Either that or they use the abbreviation SHM.
  • Briefly introduce Boroqul and Jelme.
    • Done for Boroqul, removed the reference to Jelme.
  • This incident probably happened c. 1196 - Missing an "in" here.
  • both Nestorian Christians - No change, just wanted to express my amazement at this fact. [Nestorian] Christianity in 13th century Mongolia? Wow.
  • What is Dexing? Can we get brief information about it?
    • It's a town. I couldn't find anything more.
  • The last sentence before the Khorasan campaign section ends on a cliffhanger. What happened with the invasion of Jin China or the planned assault on Juyong Pass? Did Tolui command the army until the end of the invasion or only during the siege of Xijing?
    • Only during Xijing, which I have clarified. There is too much information about the Jin campaign, none of which is Tolui-relevant, to include in this article, without compromising WP:DUE.
  • During the invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire, which began in 1219, Tolui initially accompanied his father's army, which bypassed the ongoing siege at Otrar to attack the major centres of Transoxiana—the Khwarazmshah's capital Samarkand and its neighbour Bukhara—in early 1220. - Consider splitting this sentence. I recommend something like this: "During the invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire, which began in 1219, Tolui initially accompanied his father's army. They bypassed the ongoing siege at Otrar to attack the major centres of Transoxiana—the Khwarazmshah's capital Samarkand and its neighbour Bukhara—in early 1220."
    • Done.
  • You don't need to wikilink conscripts and ambushed.
    • Delinked ambushed.
  • The following day (25 February) - Is it necessary to include "25 February" here since it is clear from the previous sentence that we were talking about 24 February?
    • Removed.
  • You don't need to wikilink fortifications and surrendered.
    • Delinked.
  • Briefly introduce Ata-Malik Juvayni.
  • Juvaini - I assume this is Juvayni?
    • Done both.
  • as a final touch - Final touch to what? Getting rid of the bodies?
    • Removed, was a slight bit of editorializing that somehow crept in.
  • There has some confusion -> "There is some confusion"
    • No, there has been—i.e. there isn't anymore, but there was.

Regency and succession question (1227–29)[edit]

  • it has been noticed that - This seems unnecessary.
    • Probably.
  • Rashid al-Din is linked for the second time here. If you implement my suggestion about him above, he would be introduced for the second time here as well.
    • Fixed.
  • You don't need to wikilink hunting.
    • Delinked,
  • allegedly because of his love for hunting - I'm confused: Did Jochi not attend the funeral because he loved hunting?
    • A kurultai isn't a funeral, but that was the allegation; it is unknown whether the allegation was true or not.
      • Not sure where I got "funeral" from. However, this still doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you meant he didn't attend the kurultai because he was busy hunting? — Golden talk
        • Yes. Amended.
  • prematurely died from a serious illness - Do you mean prematurely in terms of his age, or something else?
    • Yes to the first, but it was somewhat unnecessary, so I've removed.
  • You don't need to wikilink "drink excessively".
    • Delinked.
  • Nestorian Christian is wikilinked again.
    • It's been a while, and readers may be unfamiliar, so keeping per DUPLINK
  • You don't need to wikilink Islam.
    • It's not been linked thus far, so I'll keep it.
  • Briefly introduce Yelu Chucai.
    • Done
  • possibly exaggerates his role at the coronation. - In what way does it exaggerate? All we have read about the coronation is that Tolui attended it.
    • Clarified.
      • Can you further clarify what this "prominent position" was? Does it refer to a position during the coronation, or more generally after Ögedei became khan? — Golden talk
  • You don't need to wikilink coronation.
    • Removed.

Life under Ögedei and death (1229–c. 1232)[edit]

  • You don't need to wikilink taboo.
  • including one over Subutai himself - This is the first time we are hearing about Subutai's involvement in this battle, so the word "himself" should be dropped.
    • Removed both.
  • You don't need to wikilink "rape all the Mongol women" and "cult".
    • Removed the second link.
  • Great Khanate - This is the first time we are seeing this term. Does it refer to the Mongol Empire?
    • Clarified.

References[edit]

  • Spot-checked the following references:
  • Atwood in references #1, 3, 8, 12, 26, 39, 54, 68.
  • Atwood is missing page number in ref #8.
  • Was there, I just forgot to format correctly.
  • Boyle in references #17, 22, 31
  • Mote in reference #44.
  • I could not verify this reference. On page 434, I cannot find any information about Jochi's illegitimacy or Genghis Khan's opinion on the matter. Can you provide the exact quote?
  • Article: "Genghis was not particularly concerned by this"; source: "Chinggis had reluctantly designated his third son Ogeodei to succeed him, having been rebuffed by his other sons in his desire to make Jochi his heir." Also supported by the other provided citations, most likely Favereau, although I don't currently have access to it.
  • Togan in references #2, 38

General comments[edit]

  • Earwig's detector does not show any copyright violations.
  • Images are relevant and appropriately tagged.
  • This was one of the more interesting articles I have reviewed at GAN. I thoroughly enjoyed reading and learning about Tolui. I look forward to seeing your revisions in response to my suggestions. — Golden talk 21:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @AirshipJungleman29: Thank you for the quick changes. I've replied above to a few points that I'd still like addressed. — Golden talk 09:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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