Talk:Transgender health care

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Hardacker, Cecilia; Ducheny, Kelly; Houlberg, Magda, eds. (2019). Transgender and Gender Nonconforming Health and Aging. Springer International Publishing. ISBN 978-3-319-95031-0.

Section sizes

Section size for Transgender health care (46 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	1,377	1,377
History	3,363	3,363
Medical characterization of gender variance	7,048	7,048
Healthcare needs of transgender people	46	30,384
Gender-affirming care	1,395	10,050
Eligibility	4,330	4,330
Eligibility for different stages of treatment	1,108	1,108
Eligibility of minors	3,217	3,217
Hormone replacement therapy (gender-affirming hormone therapy)	8,143	8,143
Reproductive healthcare	3,836	3,836
Gender-affirming surgery	1,430	1,430
Effectiveness	6,408	6,408
Detransitioning	471	471
HIV in transgender people	4,760	4,760
Advocacy for transgender health care	44	5,265
Transgender Law Center	2,020	2,020
Lambda Legal	1,083	1,083
GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality	941	941
Center of Excellence for Transgender Health (UCSF)	1,177	1,177
Issues affecting transgender patients	45	41,025
Violence	7,130	7,130
Mental health	14,634	14,634
Health experiences	8,888	8,888
Clinical environment	10,328	10,328
Global access	1,915	56,143
Africa	15	990
South Africa	975	975
Asia	13	7,845
Thailand	4,550	4,550
Mainland China	3,282	3,282
Europe	15	31,790
Spain	2,678	2,678
Sweden	9,578	9,578
Netherlands	2,298	2,298
United Kingdom	14,753	17,221
Scotland	2,468	2,468
North America	22	12,379
Canada	4,380	4,380
Mexico	3,358	3,358
United States	4,619	4,619
South America	22	1,224
Colombia	1,202	1,202
For transgender youth	5,308	5,308
For transgender older adults	2,849	2,849
See also	400	400
References	92	92
Total	158,014	158,014

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Is this section of value, and balanced: "Advocacy for transgender health care"

The content here has been added recently. It is very many words, and written in a flowery, hard to read tone.

Q) For brevity: Are there reasons why the organizations listed could not simply have a sentence each?

Q) For wiki balance: should there not also be a list of advocacy organizations that criticize elements of transgender heath care, or who advocate different approaches?Peckedagain (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The section was added by C.chang04 - so I will ping their talk page to share their further thoughts here, too. Peckedagain (talk) 23:19, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the content is valuable, and no, we don't generally have WP:CRITS sections "for wiki balance" or include specific criticism that promote WP:FRINGE points or oppose something just because they don't like something. Raladic (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion of section: 'Gender exploratory care'

Raladic reverted with "This page is not here to try to whitewash conversion therapy, which is widely condemned worldwide." While I personally find it objectionable. I'm not sure that "widely condemned worldwide" is accurate as I expect that condemnation of conversion therapy is largely restricted to approximately the same countries that allow some form of Marriage Equality. (Yes, I know that is the LGB, not the T, but a similar group, which represents well less than half the population of the planet. At minimum, I'd like to see referenced condemnation in both India and the PRC before such a statement would be accurate. I'm still not sure I agree with the reversion or not, but I think it needs to be more nuanced as a reason.Naraht (talk) 22:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As is current consensus on Wikipedia, we have a subsection on Conversion therapy titled Conversion_therapy#Gender_exploratory_therapy that discusses it and the issues of it. It has no place on this article here on Transgender health care, at best, a link to the existing section at Conversion therapy could be added, but the whole section that was added was definitely an attempt at whitewashing it. So yes, I should have also mentioned WP:UNDUE as policy for the reversion instead, given that it is better served as it already currently is at the Conversion therapy article where it belongs. Raladic (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Raladic reverted my edit and wrote on my page different words:

Your recent edit to Transgender health care seemed less than neutral and has been removed.

I replied on my page that Ralladic could respond here on talk. I would like to learn what aspects of my text she found un-neutral, and which parts where 'whitewashing conversion therapy'.

Looking at my text in full: it mentions conversion therapy twice, the 2nd is quoting scathing criticism of it by UKCP!

Gender exploratory care

In contrast to the gender affirming approach which moves directly to medical intervention on the basis that the patient knows what they need, the exploratory approach recognizes that many with gender dysphoria have other factors or problems and the patient must be treated as a whole.

Some have criticized the exploratory approach as being conversion therapy under another name, including Ashley Florence's article "Interrogating Gender exploratory therapy" in the journal Perspectives on psychological science.

Others have supported it, eg in the United Kingdom in November 2023 the professional body the United Kingdom Council for Psychotherapy issued a policy statement: "exploratory therapy must not be conflated with conversion therapy which seeks to change or deny a person’s sexual orientation and/or gender identity. Conversion therapy as so defined is harmful and must not be practised." and that "Within the interim Cass Review report, the exploratory approach is described as ‘therapeutic approaches that acknowledge the young person’s subjective gender experience, whilst also engaging in an open, curious, non-directive exploration of the meaning of a range of experiences that may connect to gender and broad self-identity’".

Others have supported gender exploratory therapy, eg an article in the Archives of Sexual Behaviour: 'One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria
---------------- Peckedagain (talk) 23:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As it is 100% apparent that my edit was not 'whitewashing conversion therapy, but rather the opposite: I will revert Raladic's deletion. Peckedagain (talk) 23:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, please refer to Talk:Conversion_therapy#Gender_Exploratory_Therapy_-_Cass_Review for an at length discussion of the content in the right article. It simply is not WP:DUE for the article here at Transgender health care.

These WP:FRINGE views do not warrant legitimizing conversion therapy as health care and are not due for this article here, just as you will find that after that lengthy discussion at the article where it does belong, very little was added for the UK either.

Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia and this is a top level article on Transgender health care, not to promote WP:FRINGE pseudoscience of conversion therapy, no matter the name. A single sentence of Some have criticized the exploratory approach... does not address the NPOV pushing that happened here. So again, the content is simply not due in this article here, take it to the Conversion therapy talk page that I linked the lengthy discussion of when this was discussed last month(s) where you will find that it also was found undue there. Raladic (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic - you have now taken me to an Arbitration - and mention this edit in it? Why curtail the discussion here in Talk so rapidly? The arbitration thing is a little scary, I must say. Sledgehammer to crack a nut? Peckedagain (talk) 00:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic you mentioned the Conversion therapy page -so as suggested I have posted there the statement of UKCP regards exploratory care versus conversion therapy -[therapy&diff=prev&oldid=1240883231|see this URL] Peckedagain (talk) 00:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic -I did what you suggested and mentioned the UKCP on the Conversion Therapy page -and you have immediately reverted it -writing: "Revert WP:NPOV per the talk page discussion that found this undue (which you were informed of)"

I'm finding this arbitration action you have taken and this latest revert thoroughly confusing.

How can we two calm things down between us? Peckedagain (talk) 01:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I above specifically linked you to a Talk:Conversion_therapy#Gender_Exploratory_Therapy_-_Cass_Review talk page discussion, which discussed the UKCP statements and found them undue and you simply went and added them anyway. You were welcome to read that talk page discussion, but not to ignore the consensus and add what you believe is right. Raladic (talk) 01:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 05:25, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Transgender health care → Transgender healthcare – For this type of article, "healthcare" is preferred over "health care". See below for details. Jruderman (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Healthcare" is more common in longer titles:

"Health care" is more common in shorter titles:

— Jruderman (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion & !votes

Nominated to move based on the core article title criteria of consistency and concision. Jruderman (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- The 2016 move, adding the space, was not discussed. Jruderman (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- An informal move discussion on sibling page Talk:Intersex_healthcare did not result in adding a space to the other article. Jruderman (talk) 18:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I asked on the other page if that one should be moved to Intersex health care to be consistent with this page (given that this page here on Transgender health care has existed a lot longer, the Intersex health care was literally just created days ago) so now this inverse move proposal seems counterintuitive. Beyond that the arguments that one form is more common than the other doesn't seem to be supported by fact. Merriam Webster says "health care" with (healthcare) being synonymous for it. There are plenty of longer form titles on Wikipedia that use it with a space, so overall, it seems that it's just a choice of article authors if anything. So if you wanted to propose a singular form across Wikipedia to consolidate, this would probably be more appropriate to be done through a Wikipedia wide RFC somewhere else, not this individual article talk space. Examples of with the space for "longer titles" (basically just the first page of searching for "health care" on Wiki): Health care provider, Universal health care, Primary health care, Health care reform, Health care in France, Clinton health care plan of 1993, Health care in Australia. So we don't seem to currently have one standard over the other. Raladic (talk) 18:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

12-fold higher frequency of suicide

According to a study conducted in 56 U.S. healthcare facilities from 2003 to 2023, involving a total of 90 million patients, those who underwent sex-change surgery showed a 12-fold higher frequency of suicide rates than the control population (See doi:10.7759/cureus.57472) 176.200.65.237 (talk) 19:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are no concerns about that in the current WP article. It must be integrated into. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.200.65.237 (talk) 19:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The paper's conclusion is at best misleading, and was corrected after various groups used it to push misinformation. The control population is the general population, not trans people who have not undergone gender-affirming surgery, so the study's findings are ostensibly that suicide is more common among transgender people. It has nothing to say on how gender-affirming changes suicide rates among transgender patients—existing research (see the summary at Gender-affirming surgery#Quality of life) shows that it does not negatively affect quality of life. If cited on this article (not recommended, for the aforementioned reason), we should make this abundantly clear. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 01:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, the paper draws the wrong conclusion as they lacked to actually have a control group of transgender people who have not undergone gender-affirming surgery.

The fact that suicide risk is generally higher in the transgender population compared to the general population is already well known and studied and also discussed in the article as such.

So, I agree that due to the wrong conclusion of this paper for lack of comparing the right data, it doesn't appear warranted to be included at this point. Raladic (talk) 02:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]