Talk:Trevor Thompson (footballer, born 1936)

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Article title

Per multiple discussions across wikipedia - including one last month it is highlighted that the use of the term "Northern Irish" to describe individuals in POV and potentially BLP. As it is a BLP I am going to change the article to "Northern Ireland footballer" immediately.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the usual method is to use the date of birth (footballer born 1936) instead of a nationality. Bettia (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not AFAIK when the footballers in question have different footballing nationalities. Mooretwin (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are they both born in the same year?--Vintagekits (talk) 16:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with VK so moved to NPOV title. BigDunc 19:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya, coming in as an uninvolved administrator. I have no opinion on this article's content or title, but it is a concern that there is a battle with the article's title going on right now. Move wars are not the way to deal with this situation, and will be completely ineffective in terms of coming up with a stable title. Instead, please see Wikipedia:Requested moves to review the process on how to deal with controversial moves, thanks. --El on ka 15:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The article should be restored to its original name. Let those who wish to change it request the move. Mooretwin (talk) 00:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't care what the article should be titled, but the "Northern Irish" name was the original one, so let's leave it at that unless a proper request is filed through WP:RM. --El on ka 00:25, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with editors above. Per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies, especially:

Neutral point of view (NPOV)
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No original research

Now how does the player describe themselves? Do they describe themselves as Irish or British? We are not intrested here on how others describe them, but how they self identify. Northern Ireland as opposed to Northern Irish is at least WP:NPOV in the absence of any referenced sources. --Domer48_'fenian' 23:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer Trevor Thompson (British footballer), personally. But, Trevor Thompson (Northern Ireland footballer), will do. GoodDay (talk) 00:21, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not even about how the player describes themselves, but how the sources describe the player. Which do they use? --El on ka 00:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it's Irish, we might have a problem. GoodDay (talk) 00:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Howabout moving the article title to Trevor Thompson (b. 1936)? GoodDay (talk) 00:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The correct format for a footballer would be Trevor Thompson (footballer born 1936); any opposition to us moving it there? It's pretty uncontroversial from my standing...Giant Snowman 14:26, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Trevor Thompson (Northern Irish footballer) → Trevor Thompson (footballer born 1936) — WP:FOOTY discourages use of nationality wherever possible in article names, precisely because of all the hoo-ha that arises, as we can see above; we much prefer the use of NPOV date of births. Giant Snowman 14:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related page moves. Giant Snowman 14:38, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Support. GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support BigDunc 17:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support --Domer48_'fenian' 18:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Question - Where does WP:FOOTY discourage use of nationality wherever possible in article names? Mooretwin (talk) 20:55, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Answer - numerous discussions at WT:FOOTY have concluded that date of birth is the number 1 disambiguator over everything else - nationality, position, whatever. The most recent one is here. Giant Snowman 21:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I note that WP:QUALIFIER (a naming convention/guideline) specifically says not to use years of birth or death in an article title. --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 22:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FOOTY has used the good old Wikipedia:Ignore all rules idea, simply because there are so many footballers with the same name that the date of birth is the only thing that distinguishes them. Giant Snowman 22:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case, perhaps a note should be added to WP:QUALIFIER noting the exception? --Philosopher ^{Let us reason together.} 05:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is it not the case that dates are used because there are so many footballers of the same nationality with the same name that the date of birth is the only thing that distinguishes? Mooretwin (talk) 09:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Philosopher - yes, I would say that a note should be added. Mooretwin - yes, it is a case that many footballers who have the same name also have the same nationality. However, you are well aware of the many issues regarding nationality in Northern Ireland, and I feel that using date of birth is nice and neutral, avoiding any conflict or antagonising any editors. Giant Snowman 13:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.