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Requested move 25 October 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There appears to be no clear consensus at this point in time of whether this takes the place as a primary topic or not. No prejudice against a future RM if the situation becomes more clear. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 19:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tropical Storm Trami (2024) → Tropical Storm Trami – The storm caused a higher death toll than the other storms named Trami. The article also meets WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. HurricaneEdgar 14:18, 25 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. asilvering (talk) 17:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 15:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support most likely will get retired, though I don't have a crystal ball. 80+ deaths is very high for tropical cyclones in general. INeedSupport :3 16:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support since the 2018 Trami was also quite consequential(and a Category 5 per JTWC). This Trami appears to have caused a much higher amount of deaths. Wildfireupdateman (talk) 16:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per nom. very high deaths. Ampil (Ταικ • Cοnτribυτιοns) 03:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support: High casualty amount. Yes, move. Elios Peredhel (talk) 04:16, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The 2013 iteration of Tropical Storm Trami didn't cause more deaths than this storm, though that storm caused half of the deaths, and deaths aren't the deciding factor here. The 2013 iteration was actually once a typhoon by the JTWC and caused more damages than this iteration. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 04:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The damage report will take a few more days to be released, as the figures may still change. This Trami has the highest death toll compared to previous storms with the same name. HurricaneEdgar 04:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fatalities aren't just the deciding topic, Damage, Winds, Pressure, Coverage (the most important) are other topics you should consider, and since the 2013 iteration was the highest in all of them, then the 2013 edition might be the most significant, though I don't know about the last part. The app Windy says that the storm will make landfall in Vietnam tomorrow, so I don't think there will be that much more damage. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 05:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there is a Wikipedia policy that determines when terms like 'Damage,' 'Winds,' 'Pressure,' or 'Coverage'. Wikipedia usually prioritizes a term based on usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic. HurricaneEdgar 05:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder why you used fatalities then, but I think "Coverage" applies to this. I will search if the 2013 version has more coverage or less. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 05:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support. Way deadlier, more destructive, and (personally) more notable and notorious than the 2006, 2013 and 2018 iterations but I don't think 2024's Trami is not yet the primary topic, as of this writing at least. But once it becomes the primary topic, I think I will change my vote to strong support. Vida0007 (talk) 05:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: According to the List of retired Philippine typhoon names article. In order for a name to be retired, they must cause at least ₱1 billion ($20 million USD) in damage and/or kill at least 300 people within the Philippines. This storm cost $44.3 million in the Philippines alone. HarukaAmaranth 09:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @HarukaAmaranth the figure (which I assume comes from foreign sources) seems too early (premature). This recent Office of the Civil Defense report (via GMA Integrated News) gives the total cost of damage to more than PHP300 million (infrastructure and agriculture combined), which is at around US$5.13 million. Not yet reaching the criterion for retirement of "Kristine" (not Trami). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 05:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To add: if the Philippine name is retired, the JMA-assigned name to that decommissioned (PAGASA loves to use this term) storm name (international name) would end up being retired as well, if the Philippines would request for it in the next ESCAP/WMO session. This has been the way since 2015.
    This actually results in storms that are usually relatively insignificant (i.e. causes only a few ten million dollars with single-digit number of deaths) to be retired, which causes cases like Vongfong 2020 and Saola 2023, which have the year indicators even though they were retired in those years. Bugnawfang (talk) 11:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Relatively high death toll, but it looks pale, especially with the damage total. Nevertheless, I think it will gain a lot more traction in the coming weeks after chaos from Kristine settles; it's just a matter of time for this Bugnawfang (talk) 14:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC) Super Strong support: 165 deaths is too much. Since we're dealing with Tramis that peaked at tropical storm intensity, I'm only basing it on those storms that peaked at TS or STS. 2018 Trami is excluded as it peaked as a typhoon, so it's not a case of WP:RECENTISM (you can move that page to Typhoon Trami and put a hatnote to distinguish it from 2024 Trami). Compare this to Nock-ten 2011, when the name wasn't retired until 2016, but it still held that distinction for only peaking at TS. --Bugnawfang (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is also similar to Hurricane Agatha and Tropical Storm Agatha, although it is not retired. HurricaneEdgar 09:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support had 84 deaths more than 2018 but the 2018 one caused over 350x more damage than this one HOWEVER WP:PRIMARYTOPIC DANGA14talk 18:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Given that the storm is active I think it is a form of WP:RECENTISM to think that this storm is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I am leaning towards the status quo and to revisit this discussion maybe a year after. By then, there will hopefully be more clarity. —seav (talk) 00:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Shit Many people can't able to distinguish, so don't fucking move. MYSKaoi (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)— MYSKaoi (talk · contribs) is currently under sockpuppet investigation. Happily888 (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just say Oppose if you don't support the idea of moving it. SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 09:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry SomeoneWiki04. MYSKaoi (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC) — MYSKaoi (talk · contribs) is currently under sockpuppet investigation. Happily888 (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral/weak support – Though indeed it is deadlier than the other Trami storms, it's not as costly and strong as 2018's and not as costly as 2013's Trami, I'd say this Trami does have a great chance to become WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, There's still recency bias though. SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 04:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. dotXK 11:52, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose–Why is this discussion actually here?Moving it make me feel weird Crominance (talk) 13:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why? CyclonicStormYutu (talk) 16:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A personal opinion should be avoided during talk page discussions. (see WP:JDL) SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 12:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Really? No one here supports just waiting a bit and seeing what happens? The final death toll might be way higher. 2003 LN6 16:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait – As of now, I don't support the name change but like @2003 LN6 said, the damage can and most likely will rise. TheFloridaMan (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. We have done this all the time before an example is Typhoon Mawar had no year apart of its title, even though there were other storms called Mawar. It was because it was the deadliest and most relevant storm out of all the storms named Mawar. It should be the same for this storm. 8bit12man (talk) 02:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opposite Another comment from me, as I said that many people can't distinguish one article with the other.
The year should be kept, a strong term to easier distinguish. Why? The formation year kept is due to several cases... MYSKaoi (talk) 10:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC) — MYSKaoi (talk · contribs) is currently under sockpuppet investigation. Happily888 (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – The notability of Trami 2024 does not clearly outshine that of all other storms with that name, and it has no readily apparent long-term significance at this time. Drdpw (talk) 13:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: In 2013, Trami hit Taiwan.[1] Sinsyuan✍️🌏🚀 23:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic but good luck with the new hurricane headed your way! Wildfireupdateman (talk) 23:43, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you describe your rational a bit more? If it's based in your locality and residency, then that might be a bias, and you might need to research this topic a bit more. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 08:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nuetral– If Trami gets retired, then move. If it doesn't, then keep the current name 2600:1014:B113:855F:0:52:EE00:4F01 (talk) 00:35, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With this number of casualties and damage unless something goes wrong it will get retired (my assumption) Elios Peredhel (talk) 06:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PAGASA has hard retirement requirements for damages/deaths (300 deaths or 1 billion Filipino pesos). Therefore, it has passed the damage criteria for PAGASA retirement and it will almost certainly be retired. Wildfireupdateman (talk) 16:09, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need to wait for it to be retired first. (like Typhoon Yagi, Hurricane Beryl etc.) SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 11:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IMO, the 229 million dollar damage would make it look pale to other Tramis. Bugnawfang (talk) 22:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral The 2018 and 2013 versions of Trami caused more damage than this version so far, but this version caused more deaths than the two combined. I'd say to move it, only if it gets retired. AccordTM (talk) 16:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See my comment for above post about PAGASA retirement criteria. Wildfireupdateman (talk) 03:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support This version of Trami, while not costing a lot of damages (in terms of US dollars), is deadlier than the past versions, in which, (for me) makes this Trami the notable one. Additionally, the storm's name (Kristine) would surely be decommissioned by PAGASA and I would say the same will go for Trami, since it caused a significant loss for the Philippines (evident with the country commemorating a National Day of Mourning on November 4 for the victims of this tropical cyclone).
On another note, I also recommend Bugnawfang's recommendation to put a hatnote on the 2018's Trami and this version of Trami (if this article ever be renamed as 'Tropical Storm Trami') to distinguish them from each other. Writer-ian26 (talk) 14:23, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support the amount of casualities is so high now Crominance (talk) 09:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support This iteration of Trami is very destructive, significantly large as a STS, had a big death toll and is most likely to be retired at the end of the season. Anyone, please close and move this page now. It is clearly WP:PRIMARYTOPIC Comrade TT TV (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Can anyone comment on when the name is likely to be retired? How WP:CRYSTALBALL are these arguments? asilvering (talk) 17:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would say this has minimal WP:CRYSTAL because PAGASA has hard retirement criteria per https://pubfiles.pagasa.dost.gov.ph/pagasaweb/files/tamss/weather/tcsummary/PAGASA_ARTC_2020.pdf or PAGASA. The official PH government report(https://ndrrmc.gov.ph/attachments/article/4271/SitRep_No_32_for_Combined_Effects_of_TCs_KRISTINE_and_LEON_2024.pdf) shows well over a billion pesos in damages. Wildfireupdateman (talk) 19:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is there any actual evidence people can’t distinguish the name? People are saying it but there is no actual example shown of people being not able to distinguish between the names. 8bit12man (talk) 04:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per GMA News DOST-PAGASA is set to officially announce the decommissioning of domestic cyclone names for the 2024 season in January 2025. HurricaneEdgar 04:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support-Please close this and change the name right now, this version of Trami is so destructive Crominance (talk) 10:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support – In terms of the TROPICAL STORMS named Trami, this should certainly be moved. We've seen it before with names like Agatha that both a tropical storm and hurricane variant attained Primary Topic and thus both had the years axed. However I should note that on a meteorological perspective, it's not impossible that this version of Trami gets upgraded into a typhoon which would then ultimately conflict with the 2018 version again. If this does happen though, I would still consider this Trami to be the Primary Topic. All in all, this should be moved and the year should be removed. VantaWiki (talk) 17:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires substantially greater enduring notability, and from the debate above it's apparent the "substantial" bit isn't clear. Looking at death and damage statistics: while this is the deadliest Trami by far, damage totals are less than 2013's and much less than 2018's (I don't think the assumption that the average reader will confuse "tropical storm" and "typhoon" is without merit). Pageviews can probably be discounted at this stage due to recency bias. IMO it would be preferable to hold off until retirement (if any) is announced next year; having the year in the title helps readers navigate easier, so there's no harm done in leaving it until the long-term significance of this Trami becomes clearer. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 18:05, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should we?

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Tropical Storm Trami (2024) → Tropical Storm Trami Looks like Trami would come back to the Philippines as I checked in Zoom Earth (zoom.earth). Anyways, I don't think a move shall be made as of now. "Keep it as it is." Remember that. Anenglishguyinthephils95 (talk) 10:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Anenglishguyinthephils95 What do you mean by that? Trami's already in the coast of Vietnam, moving east, but unless a miracle happens, I don't think it would make it out alive. 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗 23:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really notice that why the name "Trami" in Vietnam, was written as "Trà Mi" or "Trà My". I'm from Vietnam so thats why I'm seen the name was weird. 2012An(4thwm1) (talk) a.k.a. MYSKaoi (talk) 05:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe because "Trami", by itself, is a word submitted by Vietnam. It's an interesting case. Bugnawfang (talk) 11:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Thats right. I get that "Trami" (or even Trà Mi/Trà My) was summited by Vietnam, I get a weird look.
If you check my main account, you will see an userbox at the bottom. This account was for discussion choice.
See List of storms named Trami for more! 2012An(4thwm1) (talk) a.k.a. MYSKaoi (talk) 11:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC) — MYSKaoi (talk· contribs) is currently under sockpuppet investigation. Happily888 (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it seems like many people aren't able to distinguish between the 2024 typhoon and others that have the same name. Don't move. MYSKaoi (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC) — MYSKaoi (talk · contribs) is currently under sockpuppet investigation. Happily888 (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Victim 109

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@HurricaneEdgar I recall a report about one dead person from a falling tree in Manila sometime around 23-25 October but couldn't find it here in the article anymore. Maybe that could explain why the table is a bit inconsistent. Borgenland (talk) 16:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hagupit ng Bagyong Kristine

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TS Kristine has made 148 fatalities from the given data from 24 Oras (9/23/2024). There was no school for all levels (PUBLIC AND PRIVATE) in:

Anenglishguyinthephils95 (talk) 03:37, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 19 December 2024

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Tropical Storm Trami (2024) → Tropical Storm Trami – This version of Trami is so destructive and deadly as it inflicted over 436 million$ of damage and also 178 fatalities Crominance (talk) 08:22, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. This storm is literally the 9th costliest in philippine history, so I don’t see it not being somewhat special. +Even though Nesat wasn’t retired, the previous 9th costliest Nalgae was retired. 49.145.108.250 (talk) 04:36, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The INTERNATIONAL name for Nesat not the PAGASA name. 49.145.108.250 (talk) 12:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support I started a discussion a few weeks ago, but it was closed without a clear consensus. I proposed adding a hatnote to distinguish the most destructive storm named Trami from the 2024 Trami. For comparison, Nock-ten in 2011 wasn't retired until 2016, despite being less significant, as it only peaked at tropical storm strength. HurricaneEdgar 23:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per HurricaneEdgar. ~🌀 Ampil 「💬 / 📝」 05:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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