Talk:Turrbal

Spelling of Turrbal / Turrubal

Hi there, I beleive that the spelling of this people is Turrbal. Would appreciate confirmation and then guidance to change the spellilng of name of this page.

Benwebboz (talk) 08:58, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The correcting spelling is indeed "Turrbal". This has been confirmed by the Turrbal people themselves on their official website: https://www.turrbal.com.au/our-story. 4ensik (talk) 00:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

On adding supposed nations to the "neighboring nations" sentence

So, there's currently a sentence above the table of contents of the article which mentions Aboriginal nations that neighbor the Turrbal.

I submitted my recent major rewrite of the article (after many days researching and writing) with the Ngugi mentioned in that sentence. I forgot to check that the Ngugi link actually went to a relevant article. After submitting the huge rewrite, User:Sillyfolkboy edited that link to explicitly say "Ngugi people", but that didn't work with the sentence structure (i.e. it was incorrect). So, anyway, I realized from this that the Ngugi nation doesn't have an article. I thus removed the Ngugi link, but User:Sillyfolkboy reverted that change.

There are two main problems with mentioning neighboring nations that don't have articles:

1. Without an article, there are no sources for either (a) their borders and thus locality to the Turrbal, nor (b) their status as a nation; many supposed "nations" mentioned on random websites are actually the names of clans or families within a larger nation.

2. You can find a whole load of "tribe" names out on webpages, and we could mention them all: e.g. the Jinibara, the Noonuccal, the Gorenpul -- but we'd only be writing down more and more unbased and unsourced claims.

User:Sillyfolkboy, if you happen to be knowledgeable about the Ngugi (or some other SEQ nation), please do go ahead and write down what you know, and provide citations. If, from that information, we find that the Ngugi are in fact a nation that's close to the Turrbal nation, then we can safely mention them in this opening sentence.

Without that kind of information, we may as well go ahead and write that the Purple-people-eaters nation neighbored the Turrbal, and wait until someone creates an article that either proves or disproves it.

--MalcolmInglis (talk) 13:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

@MalcolmInglis: Hi Malcolm. I was mainly building on your work on the article (thanks for that by the way). I got notification as you linked to Ngugi, a page I created due to my interest in Kenyan people, which is not of much use here! I trust your additions, but if some of these are not correct, or you are not sure about, then please do remove them. My edit to refine the link was driven by Norman Tindale's work, referenced on the List of Indigenous Australian group names page.

In terms of referencing, we should not be using Wikipedia itself to support information. Still, just because no Wikipedia article exists doesn't necessarily mean the topic is not important or shouldn't be linked. Often in the case of non-Western topics, important things are still sadly missing! If Wikipedia was an African creation, it probably would not have taken more than 13 years for someone to finally write the article on someone who led a coup of its largest nation and was also that nation's first international sports medallist. I'm sure that the more you read the more you will be surprised at the knowledge gaps around Indigenous Australian topics here. SFB 18:19, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Language

Hello all

I have added reliably sourced content to briefly explain that there are different views about the relationship between the Yuggera and Turrbal languages. I have added a source to previously unsourced content about Tom Petrie. I have added some books to the references section.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 08:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I have moved content and added more content about the derivation of the word "Meanjin/Meeanjin/Mianjin". I have also added Connors' alternative view of the spread of the Yuggera language group. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Country

Hello all

I have replaced some content that was contradicted by the cited source: Tindale (1974). I have added reliably sourced content on the relationship between the Turrbal and Jagera. I have slightly rewritten the contend on neighbouring peoples and have added a reliable source.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 08:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I have added content on the clans of Brisbane, which were the major territorial groups. Also more concise wording/removal of redundancies.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Native title claim

Hello all

I added content about the Turrbal and Jagera native title claim which is an important topic whichneeds to be covered.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 08:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Turrbal and Jagera in lead

Hello all

I have added content on the relationship with the Jagera. This needs to be stated upfront, otherwise the article will be confusing for those who also read the one on the Jagera.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Mention of Turrbal being a subgroup of Jagera must be removed. It is inaccurate and deeply offensive to the Turrbal People. The Turrbal People, who have an unbroken history of 40,000+ years and a right to self-determination, have made it abundantly clear that they are a different group. This is clearly stated on their official website. 4ensik (talk) 00:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

While academic sources are preferable, the self-identification of Indigenous groups holds significant weight. There is no need to edit-war and undo all changes. Please focus on presenting a neutral view and respectful tone. 4ensik (talk) 01:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

The website https://www.turrbal.com.au/ bears validity as it is the official portal of the Turrbal People, and is endorsed by Turrbal Elder Maroochy Barambah, the most eminent holder of knowledge concerning Turrbal history, culture and traditions.

https://www.turrbal.com.au/turrbal-dippil/welcome-to-country-ceremony 4ensik (talk) 01:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

1) Policy clearly states: "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." A website stating itself to be the official website of the Turrbal people is not an independent reliable source regarding contentious historical and linguistic matters or matters which are contested between different Aboriginal groups. Nor is it an independent source for matters such as notable Turrbal people. If they are notably you should have no problem finding independent sources confirming this.

2) There is indeed a dispute over whether the Turrbal are a sub-group of the Jagera and you have no warrant to remove reliably sourced information which states this. This should be stated upfront otherwise readers of the two separate articles will be very confused. They can't both be the traditional owners of all the land that is now called Brisbane. You clearly have a passionate view on the matter, but Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view: NPOV

3) The most common spelling is "Meanjin".[1] However, I can see no problem in using "Meeanjin" as an alternative as long as the other alternative spellings are listed.

Are you in any way associated with the Turrbal representative group and its website? If so, please read policy on Wikipedia:Conflict of interest Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I have re-worded the lead to better reflect the content of the article while trying to meet your concerns.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)