Talk:Underwater panther

A fact from Underwater panther appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 20 July 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that underwater panthers were creatures appearing in the mythology of a number of Native American traditions, which combined the features of mountain lions or lynx with those of snakes, and were believed to inhabit the deepest parts of lakes and rivers?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/July.

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Indigenous peoples of North America: Anishinaabe

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Image request[edit]

This image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wonderal/165250184/ has creative commons licensing status. Would that be appropriate? It is considered to be a pictograph of the "Underwater Panther" on the Canadian shore of Lake Superior. comments by 24.213.57.50

Unfortunately, no, that image is licensed under attribution-noncommercial 2.5. Since it can only be used in non-commercial situations, Wikimedia Commons won't allow it to be uploaded. --Miskwito 03:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just added a photo that I took of a Mississippian ceramic from the Smithsonian. I also have another photo of another ceramic I can add. Furthermore, I can ask the photographer from Flickr if they would let us use that rock art photo cited above, if you all think it's appropriate to the article. Let me know, Madman 04:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The petroglyph would be appropriate, since it shows the typical rendition of a mishibizhiw. Being that it is a petroglyph, if you get premission, it may be a nice addition to the Petroglyph and Anishinaabe traditional beliefs articles as well. CJLippert 02:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ask and you shall receive. Wonder Al changed the license. I cropped it a bit and uploaded it. I have yet to be turned down by a Flickr photog (although one didn't own the photo he uploaded!). Madman 01:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work, sir! --Miskwito 01:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Miskwito. Turns out that this was a pictograph (painting) and not a petroglyph (engraving), but it's still a nice addition. I also just now added a 3rd image of a "Underwater Panther/Great Serpent" bowl. Madman 03:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requires cleanup[edit]

There is no such thing as generic "native american" mythology. Nor is there a single "native american language" such as this article seems to assume. Native Americans are around 2000-4000 different ethnic groups with different religions and beliefs and languages. One giant error of the article is using words from a "native american" language without specifying which - please provide citations as to form which language the words are taken or the will be struck. Also it should be very clear throughout the article for exactly which indigenous peoples the mythological creature is documented. Someone please clean it up within a week or so or I will simply cut out the parts that seems to be saying something about generic "native americans".Maunus 12:01, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reworded the opening paragraph a bit to hopefully make it less vague and all-encompassing, but I'm not familiar enough with mishi-bizhiw lore to know which specific tribes shared this mythology--whether it was only Algonquian peoples, or other Great Lakes tribes as well, and the extent of the tradition, and so on. The entire article needs cleaning up though; especially given the importance of underwater panthers, at least in Anishinaabe mythology. --Miskwito 03:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gichi-anami'e-bizhiw = "the fabulous night panther"? "Great-spirit-lynx" seems a little more apt; the Freelang dictionary cited as the source of this translation says nothing of the sort even with a lot of creative interpretation. Panthers and lynxes are not even in the same genus, which seems to reflect in the language as bizhiw is lynx while mishi-bizhiig is a large feline (says Freelang and Nichols/Nyholm.) I'm not sure where "night" came in either. I might be misled about the anami'e particle, especially as anami'e and related particles seem to have more of a specifically Christian meaning. I'll defer to more experienced speakers, though.Chimakwa 21:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The term anami'e (ayami'e in Algonquin) and its variant anami'aa (ayami'aa) means "to be in a state of prayer/worship/reverence" (thus extended to mean "Christian" in majority of the communities), and I can guarantee you that the "the fabulous night panther" is the correct translation from the German to English, and the translation was also correct from the Ojibwe to French to German, but unfortunately, there is always a loss of meaning in the translation process so the Ojibwe to English (without the French and German in between), would yield "the greatly-revered lynx", but most people are familiar with "Kitchi-Gami: Life Among the Lake Superior Ojibway" by Johann Kohl (1859), which the English translation says just that: "the fabulous night panther". Since Wikipedia cites documentable sources, we are sort of stuck with the "lost in translation" name here. I suppose we can have a footnote added, on how the "the fabulous night panther" name translation was derived from the Gichi-anami'e-bizhiw. CJLippert 22:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. I see that Kohl is not cited. I think I shall flip tabs and add him on. CJLippert 00:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to clean up the article a bit, and I honestly think it looks pretty good now. Nice footnotes, good references, nice images. Madman 01:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery needed[edit]

We seem to be trading images. While the images that were put in are good, the images that were deleted have impact and import. A gallery at the bottom could better illustrate this. What do you think? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I switched out a faded image of the rock art for a more vivid one. The images left are definitely depictions of the underwater panther. Every precontact portrayal of a feline is not necessary an underwater panther, especially when they come from regions where actual big cats were commonplace. I know Dover has some copyright-free images of underwater panthers that I can find and scan. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose that Mishipeshu be merged into Underwater panther. These two articles are discussing the same Anishnaabe topic. Mishipeshu is an orphan, but has some good, cited information about than be incorporated here. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:00, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

I agree. Of course, there should be a redirect. In that regard, trying to find the subject is rather difficult; I had a real problem finding Underwater panther. Another area that should be explored is the canoeing and kayaking folklore that is related. I know that Stan Chladek -- a competitive kayaker and father of the Olympic paddler Dana Chladek -- used to talk about this extensively at the Great Lakes Kayak Symposium in Grand Marais, Michigan. He spent a lot of time paddling near Mishapocoten (I know I'm spelling that wrong. Sorry). 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a redirect for the alternate spelling: Mishipizhiw. I agree that both articles be merged. There may be other spellings to consider. Dger (talk) 21:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's been twelve days, I'll go ahead with the merge. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:12, 28 July 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Underwater panther/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs expansion and clarification (& citations) --Miskwito 00:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 00:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:32, 30 April 2016 (UTC)