Talk:University of California, San Francisco

UCSF is a research university

I'm challenging this edit by User:ElKevbo on 1 January 2023 which doesn't make sense. First, UCSF is a health sciences campus of which the medical school is only one part, so to call it a "medical school" is simply inaccurate. Second, as a "Special Focus" institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification. As this Web page explains in the first paragraph, the "Special Focus Research Institution" category is "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs." Any objections before I fix this? Coolcaesar (talk) 15:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

No objections here. UCSF is much more than a medical school. WildCowboy (talk) 15:51, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

First, the statement that "as a 'Special Focus' institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification" is blatantly incorrect. If this were a research university under the classification's criteria then it would be classified as such. It's a really bad idea for Wikipedia editors to impose their own judgment over what is documented in reliable sources. Second, the notion that a medical school is limited or narrowly focused is a misunderstanding of what many modern medical schools do.

With that said, the other source to which we frequently turn when asking how to describe an institution in the lede, especially the very first sentence and the infobox, is the U.S. News & World Report rankings. They classify the institution among "Global universities," an argument in favor of changing the article although it's not entirely clear if "research university" is the most appropriate label (in the prose, US&WR describes the institution as a "health sciences-focused university"). Maybe we can borrow a page from other articles like University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center and describe the institution as a "public academic health science center?" ElKevbo (talk) 23:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

You are misreading what WildCowboy said. UCSF is defined as "Special Focus Research Institution" by Carnegie, which the definition says : "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs.". This is not WildCowboy's interpetation, its spelled out cearly that this is a subset of Research Universities, not something lesser. Eccekevin (talk) 00:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

The concern over calling it a medical school doesn't have anything to do with a perception of a narrow focus. There are three other professional schools (dentistry, nursing, and pharmacy) and a graduate division that are also part of the university beyond the medical school. I could probably get behind calling it an academic health science center though. Honestly, I'm a little surprised UCSF qualifies as a Special Focus institution under Carnegie given the good balance between biological sciences (CIP Code 26) and health professions (CIP Code 51), plus a few programs that probably fit into other CIP2 categories. Among Special Focus Research Institutions, I feel like like UCSF is possibly most similar to OHSU, which is described as research university in its Wikipedia lede and infobox. I don't think Carnegie Classification necessarily needs to be the final word on how an institution is described here, but at a minimum I hope we can agree it should be something broader than just "medical school." WildCowboy (talk) 00:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

You might not want to lean on OHSU as a good example; it's also classified as a "Special Focus Four-Year: Research Institution" in the Carnegie Classification but USN&WR classifies it as a medical school. ElKevbo (talk) 03:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I specifically picked OHSU because it was listed in the same Special Focus category as UCSF and I wanted to see what Wikipedia editors had opted to describe it as for comparison. As for U.S. News, OHSU is not classified as a medical school; you must be looking specifically at the ranking of the med school. OHSU as a whole is a global university like UCSF. WildCowboy (talk) 03:14, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

You're right; thanks for the correction. ElKevbo (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

After thinking about this more, I agree that "medical school" may not be the best description. But I'm still not convinced that "research university" is the best description either (but it's probably better than medical school). I still think that "public academic health science center" warrants consideration. ElKevbo (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

The label Academic medical centre can be applied to the UCSF Medical Center, but it would be inaccurate and diminutive to apply it to the University at large, since big chunks of it are not connected at all the medical center (such as the UCSF Graduate Division or any of the non-medical research centers. Eccekevin (talk) 00:30, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Research University absolutely is the best description. Across all American universities, it has the second (2nd) highest Research spending, with 1.71 billion dollars - that's more than Harvard, Stanford, etc... Only Johns Hopkins has a higher research budget in the whole country. This fact alone goes against the idea that it is not a research university. : it is the top public recipient of NIH research money, and few places on earth have a higher research output. I'd invite you to look at University_of_California,_San_Francisco#Research and try to deny that the massive research output and focus does not match the definition of research university. Also, 'medical school' is simply inaccurate, since it is made up of five schools, only one of each is a medical school (the largest school). In accordance with WP:BRD, I reverted the change to status quo ante until the discussion is completed. People don't think of it as a proper university because it does not hosts undergrads, but those in the know are aware of its massive research output, possibly the most of any university when it comes to medical and biological research.

The Times Higher Education World University Rankings ranks it as number #45 for research in the world while ARWU has it at 21.

Finally, it is not even true that Carnegie doesn't classify as such: In addition, there is a new category Special Focus Research Institution, comprised of the special focus, institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a Research University but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs. So according to Carnegie, UCSF meets the criteria for being considered a “Research University" .Eccekevin (talk) 00:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

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