Talk:Upper Caste

Proposed merge with Forward caste

This intriguing discussion considers whether to merge our articles on Upper caste and Forward caste. As of now, "Upper caste" is a disambiguation page that links to "Forward caste" as its primary meaning; QueerEcoFeminist argues that the two phrases are, in fact, synonymous. QueerEcoFeminist's view gains a lot of extra weight by linking to checkable citations that say the two terms are synonymous, but even so, their view gains relatively little traction among other editors and even with the extra weight from the citations, it still falls short of a consensus.

In the subsequent discussion, editors agree that "Upper caste" is ambiguous; and "Forward caste" is a well-defined technical term that is only used in relation to the Indian subcontinent.

Although this discussion doesn't quite reach a consensus to enact a merge of any kind, it does come close. Those who don't want to merge would be well advised to show how "upper caste" is a broader term than "forward caste" by linking to terms that don't relate to the caste system in India. I think links to examples of upper castes in other cultures, such as samurai or kulak, would help them to achieve that.

I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 16:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

forward caste, upper caste, savarna caste all means the same, castes which have been at the upper strata of Indian society. QueerEcofeminist (talk) 04:48, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Pure different meaning. Both subjects are independent in the Indian society. Thanking you --✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 10:34, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tiven2240, Sure, I would love to know the difference if there is any. thanks QueerEcofeminist^{"cite! even if you fight"!!!} [they/them/their] 04:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@QueerEcofeminist: Do it yourself both have independent article and enough context in them to prove it's encyclopedic validity. Thank you. --✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 06:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tiven2240, These are references to my argument to merge both of these pages.

In present context Savarna is upper caste^[1]
Savarna as forward caste^[2]
Use of terms in slash mode ""Forward/upper caste""^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]^[8]

These are few instances which I could find just random searches, beyond this it's a common sense that these terms upper caste/forward caste/Savarna have been used alternatively to denote the same social group in Indian society.

I can improve the article once it has been merged using the same. Hope now you will stop opposing irrationally as I don't see any reasons to your argument of having different pages. thanks QueerEcofeminist^{"cite! even if you fight"!!!} [they/them/their] 08:32, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly please read WP:NOR, WP:CN before moving the article. Even have a look at WP:OWNERSHIP because your statements above truely goes against them. Please remain civil in your statements rather than using abusive words on talkpages. Moving/merging on wp works on consensus and i don't find consensus on this discussion. I could advise you to consider reaching consensus at VP. Thanking you. --✝iѵɛɳ२२४०^{†ลℓк †๏ мэ} 10:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tiven2240,

Don't throw such words and policies on me, won't help here.
I am not taking any ownership here, infact you are trying to show your emotional attachment here by opposing me without reason, Additionally you haven't proven how these concepts are different.
I have given enough sources to prove my point. And I am not showing any uncivil behavior too, so stop patronizing. and try to be rational (support your claims with valid sources or leave the claim if you can not.) QueerEcofeminist^{"cite! even if you fight"!!!} [they/them/their] 11:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Abraham, Joshil K.; Misrahi-Barak, Judith (2015-07-24). Dalit Literatures in India. Routledge. ISBN 9781317408796.
^ Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2000-12-20). Social Mobility In Kerala: Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press. p. 29. ISBN 9780745316932.
^ Fernandez, Marilyn (2017-12-12). The New Frontier: Merit vs. Caste in the Indian IT Sector. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780199091713.
^ Seale, Shelley (2011-06-30). The Weight of Silence: Invisible Children of India. The Weight of Silence. p. 59. ISBN 9781463780760.
^ Shastri, Sandeep; Suri, K. C.; Yadav, Yogendra (2009). Electoral Politics in Indian States: Lok Sabha Elections in 2004 and Beyond. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780198063292.
^ Wadhva, Charan D. (2005). India and Serbia, and Montenegro Re-engagement: Regional and Bilateral Dimensions. APH Publishing. p. 286. ISBN 9788176489614.
^ Noorani, Abdul Gafoor Abdul Majeed (2003). Fascism in India: faces, fangs, and facts. Manak Publications. p. 447. ISBN 9788178270678.
^ Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2000-12-20). Social Mobility In Kerala: Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press. p. 28. ISBN 9780745316932.

I've reverted the merge as it seems to have been performed without awareness of this discussion. To me, "upper caste" looks like a generic ambiguous term, with Forward caste being only one, if presently most relevant, of its meanings. But that's not an area that I'm familiar with; Sitush, Utcursch, what do you think? – Uanfala (talk) 01:06, 4 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support just same subjects that needs to be kept at the same spot. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 03:11, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Agree with Uanfala. "Upper caste" is a highly ambiguous term, which is used in different ways in different contexts. It should not be mixed up with any well-defined term such as "forward caste". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:27, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The term 'upper caste' was used during the British Raj at a time when the idea of 'forward caste' did not exist. Narky Blert (talk) 13:51, 22 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Synonyms, best merged to the more modern term, with any differences in meaning discussed on that page. It's true that the term upper caste existed before forward caste, but that is not a reason to keep it separate as wikipedia isn't a dictionary but has pages on concepts, even where there are multiple terms to discuss related concepts. I also note that the Upper Caste article has only one reference, and that doesn't support the meanings listed on the page, but only the same meaning as Forward caste. Klbrain (talk) 07:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] Abraham, Joshil K.; Misrahi-Barak, Judith (2015-07-24). Dalit Literatures in India. Routledge. ISBN 9781317408796.

[2] Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2000-12-20). Social Mobility In Kerala: Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press. p. 29. ISBN 9780745316932.

[3] Fernandez, Marilyn (2017-12-12). The New Frontier: Merit vs. Caste in the Indian IT Sector. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780199091713.

[4] Seale, Shelley (2011-06-30). The Weight of Silence: Invisible Children of India. The Weight of Silence. p. 59. ISBN 9781463780760.

[5] Shastri, Sandeep; Suri, K. C.; Yadav, Yogendra (2009). Electoral Politics in Indian States: Lok Sabha Elections in 2004 and Beyond. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780198063292.

[6] Wadhva, Charan D. (2005). India and Serbia, and Montenegro Re-engagement: Regional and Bilateral Dimensions. APH Publishing. p. 286. ISBN 9788176489614.

[7] Noorani, Abdul Gafoor Abdul Majeed (2003). Fascism in India: faces, fangs, and facts. Manak Publications. p. 447. ISBN 9788178270678.

[8] Osella, Filippo; Osella, Caroline (2000-12-20). Social Mobility In Kerala: Modernity and Identity in Conflict. Pluto Press. p. 28. ISBN 9780745316932.

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