Talk:Vale of Belvoir

This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Politics of the United Kingdom

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom articles

??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

More information:
/
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

UK geography Mid‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WikiProject UK geographyUK geography articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Lincolnshire Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lincolnshire, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lincolnshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LincolnshireWikipedia:WikiProject LincolnshireTemplate:WikiProject LincolnshireLincolnshire articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Nottinghamshire Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Nottinghamshire, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Nottingham and Nottinghamshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NottinghamshireWikipedia:WikiProject NottinghamshireTemplate:WikiProject NottinghamshireNottinghamshire articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

Dukes of Rutland for a thousand years[edit]

This page contained a claim that Belvoir Castle has been the seat of the duke of Rutland for a thousand years. But the title of 'duke of Rutland' was created in 1703 (for a family that was obscure before 1260), besides which the existing Belvoir Castle was built after the Civil War and (I think) after the Restoration (1658).

I have, accordingly, deleted the claim.

Agemegos 07:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The title was upgraded to Duke in 1703, the lordship was already an Earldom and Barony before that (hardly "obscure") and had been since 1375. The family were well established in the area long before that, hence the "ancestral" term. There has been a castle on that site since shortly after the Norman invasion (ok, so only 949 years) and the current one is the fourth one to have existed. The claim is not at all absurd, and could easily have been resolved had you used a citation tag rather than simply deleteing what you didn't understand.

I have accordingly reinstated the correct information.

Pyrope 10:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

949 years is not 1,000 years, besides which there is no evidence that there was a castle in 1058 (it is very unlikely).

To refer to the Manners family as being Dukes of Rutland for a thousand years is misleading in itself. First, they were not dukes before 1703. They were not earls of Rutland before 1535. You say that 'the title' had been an earldom since 1375, but that is untrue and misleading. The earldom of Rutland of the first creation went extinct in 1415, and belonged to a completely separate family (a cadet branch of the royal House of Plantagenet.

Before 1703 the Manners family were not dukes. Before 1525 they did not hold the honour of Rutland. Before 1264 they were not even lords. Before 1247 they did not hold the caastle in question. The castle did not exist before 1066 and probably later. It originally belonged to the d'Aubigny family, escheated to the Crown in 1215, and was given to Sir Robert de Ros (ancestor of the current dukes of Rutland) in 1247. To say that Belvoir castle has been the ancestral home of the dukes of Rutland for a thousand years is not 'the correct information'. It is just plain wrong in every sense.

You are wrong to aver that I did not understand the claim. I understand it perfectly, and understand in detail why it is wrong. I know that it is possible to source the claim from the Belvoir Castle official web-page, but that does not make the claim itself any less ridiculous. This statement does not need a citation, it needs to be removed.

Agemegos 07:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]