Talk:Vanilla/Archive 1

Archive 1

Types

(undated)

Bourbon

The term " Bourbon " originally referred to vanilla beans grown on Madagascar, Reunion and the Comoros Islands. Today, the term is used to describe Vanilla planifolia beans cultivated in other parts of the world including Uganda and India. When grown in other parts of the world, the beans are most accurately described as " Bourbon Type ".

The extract made from Bourbon vanilla beans has a fruity, sweet creamy, hay-like aroma with vanillin and phenolic undertones. It is generally stronger in flavor than the extract produced from other origins.

Mexican

Mexican vanilla is also Vanilla planifolia . The extract produced from Mexican beans has a unique flavor and aroma. It is slightly more spicy and woody in flavor and has less of the vanillin undertones found in "bourbon" vanilla.

Unfortunately, much of the vanilla extract produced in Mexico is adulterated with artificial vanillin, ethyl vanillin and other artificial flavor ingredients. Visitors to Mexico often believe they are buying Pure Vanilla Extract at great prices when all they are getting is a cheap imitation product colored with caramel color.

Tahitian

The beans of Vanilla tahitensis , have a unique flavor and aroma, which is floral and fruity. The extract made from these beans is sweet and creamy with notes of cherries and prunes. Tahitian Vanilla Extract typically has a more delicate flavor than Bourbon Vanilla Extract.

Indonesian

The beans grown in Papua New Guinea and other parts of Indonesia are Vanilla planifolia . Indonesian beans, however, due to the climate, soil conditions and how they are cured, often have a unique flavor and aroma, which is best described as slightly smoky. Most of the beans produced in Indonesia are purchased by large industrial users of vanilla and blended with vanilla from other origins.

Vanilla Mycorrhizal Fungi Species

So does anyone know which mycorrhizal fungi species are symbiotic with vanilla?24.83.178.11 11:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)BeeCier

Image "vanille output"

I corrected the table of producer (Belgium was among the top producer of vanilla !?). However, I don't know how to fix the related map. If someone can do it.

Copytheft

http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi57.htm contains text from the Vanilla article without credit and on my browser put up an annoying popup that could not be dismissed without agreeing to a "scan" of my computer. I looked at one other page and it also appeared to be stolen material. 68.249.108.238 05:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

French Vanilla

The article isn't clear in it's definition of "French Vanilla". Currently it implies that "French vanilla" means vanilla and egg custard. This is consistant with the ingredient lists of Bryers Vanilla and French Vanilla ice cream. However, I read somewhere that "French vanilla" means "vanilla and brandy". I don't recall where I read this. Does anyone have more information? —BenFrantzDale 03:18, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Image/Formatting Issues

For me, the "Longitudinal section of a vanilla flower" is partially obscuring the line of text above it. Could someone who knows how fix this? The Jade Knight 21:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks fine to me at all window sizes with Firefox. What browser are you using?―BenFrantzDale 02:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

IE 6. Doesn't matter how I resize the window, same problem. The Jade Knight 05:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I take that back. If I make the window big enough it's no longer a problem. However, it is slightly bothersome to have to make the window particularly large. The Jade Knight 02:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or do the pictures towards the bottom of the page, really belong in the medicinal portion of the page?? --CitaBean

vanilla powder and vanilla extract production?

The Preparation section should say how the vanilla powder and the vanilla extract are produced. --68.96.241.18 11:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Cost

Does anyone know why vanilla beans are so expensive? $15 for 2 of them! 72.90.244.182 00:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Ouch! What kind? Vanilla beans are very hard to grow and harvest- but that's just ridiculous. Tahitian beans are considered the creme of the crop, but even then should only cost $6 each. Madagascar beans are easy enough to get at $1.50 each. --24.37.235.244 01:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well depending on your taste Tahitian may or may not be the 'creme of the crop.' The planifolia variation grown in the islands of Madagascar, the Comoros and Reunion, more commonly known as 'bourbon,' has been around for longer and traditionally has been more expensive. Mangiraikos 07:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

xóchitl

I have always known xóchitl as 'pod' not 'flower.' As I am not an expert of the language the Aztecs used, I'm putting it up here first. I've know tlilxochitl as 'black pod,' not 'black flower.' It does make sense as the pods are black but the flowers are white. Mangiraikos 07:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting point, but the fact is, xochitl does mean "flower" in Nahuatl, as in for example, Xochimilco, literally "flower field". Perhaps the Aztecs focused on the pod part of the flower for the color. Tmangray 17:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not a specialist of nahuatl language, but I think Aztecs were not scientfic botanists and the fruit nature of a vanilla pod is not obvious. Everybody can see it comes from a flower but as a fruit it is not fleshy, the seeds look like dust and do not germinate easily. For this ancient people, it was just a transformed flower not an edible fruit. Channer 10:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The Aztecs actually did have botanists of a kind. They established several botanical gardens in fact, to represent the plants they knew. It's possible that when it was first named, vanilla in its actual floral state was unknown to them, in that they may have received the pods in trade from others. Unless someone else has other information as to why they called it "black flower", we are left to speculate. Tmangray 22:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I have found where I thought the word meant 'pod.' "...Aztecs call "tlilxochitl", derived from "tlilli", meaning "black", and from "xochitl" interpreted here as meaning "pod"." I guess the word does mean flower as they specifically have to use 'pod' here. Leaving us to speculate that the word means flower most of the time. I guess flower will have to do here. Off the topic, I would love to see a true "black flower." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mangiraikos (talk • contribs) 01:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Artificial vanilla from cow manure.

I have to take exception to the statement that "An estimated 95% of “vanilla” products actually contain artificial vanillin, produced from lignin and cow manure.", when the citation attached to it makes no such claim. While I hve no problem with the first part ("An estimated 95% of “vanilla” products actually contain artificial vanillin"), the rest makes it sound like some sizable amount in vanilla products comes from cow manure. This appears to be incorrect -- indeed, the cited reference only notes that in 2006 a scientist was able to synthesize vanillin from manure. There is no reference in the citation to any results of that research actually making it into any food products for human consumption. As such, I'm removing the reference. --Yaztromo 07:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Errors in figures under "2009 Top Vanilla Producers"

These percentages don't appear to be correct. No way can French Polynesia have the same percentage as Mexico when their outputs are nearly an order of magnitude apart. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.214.143 (talk) 23:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Hernán Cortés - really?

"Originally cultivated by Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican peoples, Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés is credited with introducing both the spice and chocolate to Europe in the 1520s" -- are we sure? Neither the vanilla nor chocolate page lists Hernan, and indeed, the history of chocolate page lists columbus as the introducer. Can someone verify this or remove it pls? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.102.79.49 (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Totonac tribe were first to cultivate vanilla, not the Aztecs

The article implies that the Aztecs were first MesoAmericans to cultivate vanilla. This is WRONG. The earlier Totonac people were first and they later sold it to the Mayas and later to their successors, the Aztecs learned to cultivate it, ended up annexing the Totonac lands and joining the violent Spanish invaders led by Herman Cortes to fight for the Aztec Empire of Moctezuma II. --208.54.70.153 (talk) 19:36, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Dubious

The assertion that Tahitian vanilla is a separate species is dubious. The citation given is not scientific, the Encyclopedia of Life does not list "Vanilla tahitensis" as a species, and even the Wikipedia article Vanilla (orchid) does not list it as a species. I suspect that there is cultural or commercial interest in distinguishing Tahitian vanilla as a species, but there must be scientific evidence to support it. ENeville (talk) 17:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Harmful or beneficial?

Is vanilla or vanillin good for you or not? Any known health risks? 80.0.97.97 (talk) 01:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Vanilla/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

This article does not meet the Good article criteria and has therefore failed. Issues include:

• The lead is too short. Please expand it to at least three paragraphs or so per WP:LEAD.
• Web references should be formatted per WP:CITE/ES to include access date and publisher information.
• here is a "dubious" tag in the article.
• A significant amount of information goes unreferenced per WP:CITE, including but not limited to:
  • Most of the "Vanilla orchid" section
  • Second and second-last paragraph of the " History" section
  • Second paragraph of the " Chemistry" section
  • Second paragraph of the "General production guidelines" section
  • Second paragraph of the "Pest and disease management" section
  • From the third to the last points in the "Stages of production" section
  • And so on
• Several references are placed improperly; there should be no spaces between punctuation marks and references. For example, "vine.[16] [17] In" should be "vine.[16][17] In"

Once these issues have been resolved, please ensure that the article meets the Good article criteria laid out at WP:GA? and then renominate it. Gary King (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Please restore the spelling dialect per WP:ENGVAR, so that I do not have to do it a second time in one day. The article uses British English, the dialect it was started with. VMS Mosaic (talk) 20:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You didn't have to change it in the first place, there was a smattering of both dialects throughout the article before I started editing. I was correcting this as I edited, choosing the American English dialect as I am American; then you came along and changed all the American English to British English and undid the changes I had begun.

Additionally, the sources I have located, as well as most of the ones already in place, use the American dialect. I wish to keep everything standardized. That is why I started using the American dialect. --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 00:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC), amended 05:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you read WP:ENGVAR? I prefer using American (being one), but this article uses British (please see the first edit). I will change it back when I have some time later today. VMS Mosaic (talk) 17:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually I have, specifically this part:

If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic. In the early stages of writing an article, the variety chosen by the first major contributor to the article should be used, unless there is reason to change it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic. Where an article that is not a stub shows no signs of which variety it is written in, the first person to make an edit that disambiguates the variety is equivalent to the first major contributor.

While the initial entry was in British English, it was a stub. The first major contributor Peter G Werner used American English. Before that point there was no preferences, and it was a hodge-podge of both. One other contributor that made any significant contributions was Anskrev only made layout changes. Peter G. Warner is the first person to make an edit that disambiguates the variety. Additionally, there are no major national ties binding a particular version of English to the article. The closest would be Mexico where vanilla originated; when using English, Mexico tends to use American English predominantly (Translations, etc).

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 21:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I have been monitoring this article for WP:ENGVAR since 5/10/07 when I found one word with American spelling. I made additional WP:ENGVAR edits on 6/13/07, 6/30/07, 7/17/07, 12/8/07, 1/23/08 and 3/12/08. Unfortunately I missed the edit on 5/26/08 where some American spellings were introduced (another editor corrected some of the spellings which is why I probably missed the rest). If I had not missed those edits, you would have found an article with no American spellings when you started your GA editing.

If I hadn't screwed up, you would have no reason to change the spelling. Per WP:MOS "It is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so; for example, it is unacceptable to change from American to British spellings unless the article concerns a British topic." The subsections of WP:ENGVAR are for use when an article is found without a consistent style which this article would have had except for my mistake. Going back in the history to find an excuse to change the current style is not a valid use of WP:ENGVAR. If you want to take advantage of a recent editing mistake on my part, then I will not continue to argue the issue. VMS Mosaic (talk) 22:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Language expresion: "Plain Vanilla" and Adulteration of Vanilla sections should be added to this article

I am not an English native speaker. I have seen the expression Plain Vanilla meaning something like the basic version to which other flavours will be added. This expression is used in many computer science books in phrases like: the plain vanilla compiler, plain vanilla language. I think it is important to include a section linking idiomatic expressions with vanilla to their appropriate entries containing the complete etymological origin.

I liked this article why not? Vanilla among chocolate is a favourite flavour in the world. :)

I should say that it is an extended practice of unhonest merchants in Mexico to put vanilla pods in alcohol to extract the essence they sell the pod and keep the alcohol with the extract to sell apart. In that case vanilla has a very weak taste. I think it is important to include an adulteration of vanilla section in this article an other about other spices. I maybe take a picture of this practice the next time that I see it and upload it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elias (talk • contribs) 10:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Mexican/Madagascar vanilla production quantities disagree

1) In the History section, last para: "Mexico, once the leading producer of natural vanilla with an annual 500 tons, produced only 10 tons of vanilla in 2006". In the Culinary Uses section, the table "2006 Top Vanilla Producers" gives the Mexican Production as 350 tonnes. A casual survey of other web pages gave varying production quantities for Mexican vanilla but are generally closer to the figure given in the History section.

2) In the Culinary Uses section, the table "2006 Top Vanilla Producers" gives the Mexican Production as 350 tonnes. The external FAO link (below graph) gives Mexican 2006 vanilla Production Quantity as 291 tonnes.

3) Similar disparities to 2) also arise between the Wikipedia table and the FAO stats for other countries (eg Madagascar - 6200 and 2534 respctively).

Either a correction or a clarification is needed (but perhaps not by me - approx 99% of what I know about vanilla has been learned in the last 10 minutes).

Oniscoid (talk) 12:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Adding to Oniscoid's note: I observe that History pp. 3 begins with the claim "Madagascar is now responsible for 97% of the world's vanilla bean production," and History pp. 5 with the contradictory claim "Madagascar (mostly the fertile region of Sava) accounts for half of the global production of vanilla." The first claim is sourced to what looks like a 12-year-old article on HerbalGram, a website that appears to advocate for herbal medicinals, so I'd question its validity as an RS. The second is sourced to a completely nonexistent website. (It may have existed at one time; the domain name is no longer registered, however.)

I would suggest removing both claims of production percentages, as neither source appears to be both reliable and verifiable. The corresponding claims in the Madagascar article merely state that Madagascar is the world's leading producer, responsible for "about half the world's export market." I suggest that this article be reworded to match that statement, unless somebody can find a real RS, in which case the production numbers from that RS could be used instead.

If nobody speaks out against this edit, I'll make it in a week or so.

- still-anon copyeditor 216.254.21.202 (talk) 19:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I just made this change much as I proposed, by deleting the vanillaexchange.com reference completely, and editing the sentence it was attached to to remove the "half" claim that presumably originated there. (Btw, the domain vanillaexchange.com *is* still registered, but there seems to be no DNS entry for it anywhere.)

Does anyone else care that the article still uses the "ancient" production stats from the HerbalGram article? This bugs me a bit, and I think the corresponding claim should be updated with better numbers, or at least clarified as being old and likely outdated. 216.254.21.202 (talk) 20:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi folks. I suspect current data on production is quite a bit off from the listed numbers due to the price spike in the mid-2000s. Moreover, India's EXIM Bank reported over 100 metric tons of production in country in 2005, and that number was rapidly rising (for the same reason). Can someone dig up more recent numbers? Thx.Shayanakadidal (talk) 04:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Which Mycorrhizal Fungi Species Is Required For Vanilla To Germinate?

Which mycorrhizal fungi is required for vanilla to germinate?24.83.148.131 (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)BeeCier

Vanilla Planifolia

There is No mention of Vanilla planifoliabeing grown extensively in South India. The vanilla grown in India is of Bourbon type . Over 200 MT/ year of Cured Vanilla Beans are being exported from India, over the past eight years. (USDA Statistics) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jyothiramamohan (talk • contribs) 04:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

ITC external link to trade data

Hello everyone, I am working for the International Trade Centre (ITC). In the absence of any link towards the trade figures for this product category, I would like to propose the addition of an external link that could lead directly to the specific product trade data held by ITC. I would like you to consider this link under the WP:ELYES #3 prescriptions. Moreover, the reliability and the pertinence of this link can be supported by the following facts 1) ITC is part of the United Nations 2) No registration is required 3) Trade data (imports/exports) are regularly updated 4) The link gives direct access to the trade database referring to the specific product 5) The addition of a link to reliable trade data could provide an appropriate contribution to the article Thank you in advance for your attention.Divoc (talk) 18:48, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Spice?

What is it that makes vanilla a spice? You wouldn't put vanilla extract on a spice rack! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.13.2 (talk) 22:52, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure why you would say that because I think that most people do. Also, I would call it a spice because of its function. It is basically a flavoring agent like salt or pepper. I've never seen a recipe where vanilla was used as a main ingredient like apple in an apple pie or even as a sauce like tomato in a tomato sauce dish. There always seems to be a "carrying" agent such as custard (egg) or the cream in a vanilla ice cream.23.16.154.149 (talk) 06:27, 7 March 2013 (UTC)BeeCier

The standing definition used by WP:Herbs is that a spice is the stem, seed, or bark of a plant used to flavor food. A herb is the leaf or flower of a plant used to flavor food. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 06:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

In my kitchen it's right next to the cinnamon, nutmeg and other sweet spices. -- Borb (talk) 21:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Fermentation

E.g. this article says that the spice comes from fermented beans. In the article there is no mention of such process… How is it then? --Nefronus (talk) 19:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

In my language "fermentation" means curing by yeast. Maybe the fermentation mentioned in English articles about vanilla is meant to describe the enzymatic processes within "killing, sweating, drying, conditioning" without any yeast or bacteria used whatsoever? --Nefronus (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Melipona bee as a pollinator of vanilla

Hi all,

It seems this article contradicts itself on whether or not the Melipona bee is a pollinator of vanilla. From the pollination subsection: "The previously suggested pollination by stingless bees of the genus Melipona is improbable as they are too small to be effective and have never been observed carrying Vanilla pollen or pollinating other orchids though they do visit the flowers."

But in the introduction: "Initial attempts to cultivate vanilla outside Mexico and Central America proved futile because of the symbiotic relationship between the vanilla orchid and its natural pollinator, the local species of Melipona bee."

I looked into the sources but I'm really not qualified to make a call on who is right. Just thought I'd point it out.

CoupleK (talk) 23:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I revised the lede and added a reference which probably could be stronger, so I will continue looking. Hummingbirds may also be pollinators, according to this source. --Zefr (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I did some further minor fixing on this, but the article is definitely still confusingly contradictory as it stands, e.g. the sentence "The Melipona bee provided Mexico with a 300-year-long advantage on vanilla production from the time it was first discovered by Europeans." --Dan Harkless (talk) 14:56, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Vanilla in the Old World 3,600 years ago - (new discovery) - sources Smithsonian and Science Now

Please refer to this article from the Smithsonian: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/vanilla-was-first-used-2500-years-earlier-and-half-world-where-we-thought-180970862/?utm_source=smithsoniandaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20181121-daily-responsive&spMailingID=37474810&spUserID=MjQwNzM1NDQ4NjU3S0&spJobID=1402296043&spReportId=MTQwMjI5NjA0MwS2

The article is dated November 21, 2018 ie yesterday, so this is a new finding:

Excerpt (edited): "four small ceramic jugs at Megiddo, an archaeological site in Israel,… were found in an untouched Bronze Age tomb called “Tomb 50,” which dates back 3,600 years. As Bruce Bower at ScienceNews reports, the residue in the jugs contained vanillin and 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, the major flavor components in vanilla, along with residue of olive oil. The research was presented by archaeologist Vanessa Linares of Tel Aviv University at the annual meeting of the American Schools of Oriental Research last week." (The date of the meeting was November 16.

The Science News article was published three days ago: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/bronze-age-tomb-israel-reveals-earliest-known-use-vanilla

"Until now, vanilla was thought to have originated in Mexico, perhaps 1,000 years ago or more. But jugs from the Bronze Age site of Megiddo contain remnants of two major chemical compounds in natural vanilla extract, vanillin and 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, said archaeologist Vanessa Linares of Tel Aviv University in Israel. Chemical analyses also uncovered residues of plant oils, including a component of olive oil, in the three jugs.

“Bronze Age people at Megiddo may have used vanillin-infused oils as additives for foods and medicines, for ritual purposes or possibly even in the embalming of the dead,” Linares said. She described these findings at the annual meeting of American Schools of Oriental Research on November 16.

"Vanillin comes from beans in vanilla orchids. About 110 species of these flowers are found in tropical areas around the world. The chemical profile of the vanillin in the Megiddo jugs best matches present-day orchid species in East Africa, India and Indonesia, Linares said.

"…discoveries at Megiddo challenge the idea that vanilla use originated only in Mexico and then spread elsewhere, Cline says"

I request that this new information be added to the article.

Rivergod (talk) 13:09, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Given the well-known difficulty of pollinating vanilla outside of Mexico, the idea that strains of it naturally existed elsewhere seems surprising. Many plant products contain vanillin, including most ubiquitously lignin, which plays an important factor in things like oak-aged spirits and wine, so the fact that vanillin has been found in archeological artefacts elsewhere is not really surprising (other than that is has survived so well!), much stronger evidence would be needed to support the claim that vanilla itself was growing elsewhere (seeds for instance, or pollen, which certainly exists for several thousand years and is often used to profile what species used to grow in particular locales). Samatarou (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

On the one hand, yes, there are numerous species of vanilla orchids in the Old World, but the thing is, only Mexican vanilla is used to make the spice. Or, to reiterate what Samatarou said, do the Megiddo jars contain vanillin derived from vanilla bean-vanillin (i.e., from the Mexican Vanilla planifolia), or was the vanillin derived from other plant products, like the situation with wine-making?--Mr Fink (talk) 00:54, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I think this should be removed; the article states that it is likely that Vanilla was "likely obtained by sea trade from India or Africa some 3,600 years ago in what is now the Middle East, and was used to flavor olive oil." Both of the experts interviewed in the story express serious doubt that this occurred, so it is far from "likely". Brandoncorder (talk) 16:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Why is this american english?

Why is this american english? Redostone35 (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

History sources

• Steavenson, Wendell (29 April 2019). "The bitter truth behind Madagascar's roaring vanilla trade". The Economist.
• Nosowitz, Dan (10 December 2020). "How Did Madagascar Become the World's Biggest Producer of Vanilla?". Atlas Obscura.

Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:01, 16 December 2020 (UTC)