Talk:WTA 1000 tournaments
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Guadalajara 1000 is a replacement of Wuhan 1000
[edit]Both can't be side by side in 2023 as one is permanently gone (not merely suspended and coming back like Beijing). —Loginnigol 08:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Loginnigol, Wuhan is scheduled to return in 2024 replacing Guadalajara. See 2024 WTA Calendar. Qwerty284651 (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Records
[edit]Records are listed incorrectly: S. Williams (23 titles) + Hingis (26 titles). The WTA has been counting titles since 2009, when the WTA Premier Mandatory & 5 was established, see WTA source: 2009: The WTA 1000 tournament level was originally introduced to the Tour in 2009 as Premier Mandatory and Premier 5 tournaments. / 13: Serena Williams has won the most singles titles at WTA 1000 tournaments, followed by Victoria Azarenka (10). Williams has 13 titles since 2009. Kacir 16:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Kacir, the records listed on this page is of WTA 1000 tournaments since Tier I was introduced back in 1990, not just the Premier Mandatory and Premier 5 tournaments in 2009. A timespan of over 30 years. See WTA 1000 tournaments#Historic names.Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I understand, but the concept of the article titled as WTA 1000 is wrong, because WTA 1000 and its predecessor didn't exist before 2009. So titles should not be counted before that date. IMHO this contradicts the RS from the WTA itself. Kacir 01:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I get where you are coming from, but in 2021 with the latest WTA category renewal, WTA retconed all the previous series (WTA Tier I, Premier Mandatory, Premier 5, WTA 1000) by renaming the old names under one name WTA 1000. See WTA 1990 calendar. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- It's just a mechanical change of the website that corresponds to the present. If you look at Carlsbad in August 1990 (Southern California Open), it has a WTA 500 category. This is a mistake, because it was Tier III (WTA 250) then and the WTA 500 corresponds to the category in 2023. BTW, it was played in Carlsbad only from 1991, in 1990 it held in San Diego. 1990 Bausch & Lomb in April has WTA 250, although it was part of Tier II (WTA 500) then.
Also, the statement that the French Gracheva lost in the final of the 2023 ATX Open is not true, see M Kostyuk opponent on the WTA website, because she obtained French nationality in June 2023. I repeat the WTA's quote above that WTA 1000 tournament level was originally introduced to the Tour in 2009 as Premier Mandatory and Premier 5 tournaments. Kacir 01:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)- This article encompasses multiple "eras" or categories of WTA 1000 tournaments, so they are all in one place/article instead of having 3 separate articles for each new name rebranding. They used to be split, but then they got merged.
- Same is with the ATP Masters 1000 page. There have been 6 renaming instances/category name changes on the men's tour since 1990 yet we have only 1 article to keep things simple. WTA has been inconsistent with its naming convention. If you are introducing a new category, then don't retcon it by changing previous Series: Tier I and Premier M/5 cats to reflect recent changes. Makes things more complicated.
- Kacir, if you would like to have the article renamed to reflect accurate data or split it, then feel free to open a discussion on the Project's talk page. Qwerty284651 (talk) 12:01, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I see. The problem, however, is that Wikipedia is a tertiary, not primary source. This means that Wikipedia itself should not create facts that contradict the reliable sources (Serena Williams has won a record 23 WTA 1000 singles titles), and in this case even with the most reliable source – the Women's Tennis Association, which itself organizes the circuit and creates statistics (Serena Williams has won a record 13 WTA 1000 singles titles); No original research. Kacir 10:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- In actuality Serena has won zero WTA 1000 singles titles. That category name was not invented till 2021. Usually WTA Tier I...WTA Premier Mandatory/Premier 5...WTA 1000 are all synonymous. They are simply category name changes. Some lump the records together and some don't. What is strange about our articles is that we separated them into three different articles. It's not strange that we separated them but the stats are sometimes separated and sometimes not. In our Tier one article we have Serena with ten singles titles. In the next incarnation we have our article with Serena winning 13 Premier Mandatory/Premier 5 singles titles. Then our new article on WTA 1000 tournaments it is not since inception of 2021, it's all the categories since 1990. Since the "WTA 1000" article is different than the other two articles, it makes it somewhat confusing to our readers. The WTA itself has confused readers with their arbitrary records of not including Tier 1 events. I'm not sure what the best fix is since tennis has always been convoluted in its tournament hierarchy. I know that Serena Williams either won 0 WTA 1000 events or 23 WTA 1000 events, but to convey that isn't straightforward. Add to the fact that the WTA website changed a few years ago and has been unreliable and messy since then. Tennis Abstract lumps all them together for Serena since 1995. My thoughts here would be that since this article lists champions from 1990 onwards, the records should be of the same timeframe. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Serena has won zero WTA 1000 singles titles – The WTA, as the organizer of the circuit, effectively sets and determines the rules, and only the WTA creates the relevant statistics because it's its circuit. In this perspective, perhaps to list 13 WTA 1000 + 10 Tier I titles. Of course, if the WTA would list a different number of titles in its articles, then that changes the situation. Kacir 23:44, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Here's something else you will find in going through archives of the WTA. Their totals don't match because they change their rules on occasion. What was a total in 2010 is no longer the same total. This happens a lot! They are not always the best source for totals. I would certainly not list it your way. I would list 0 WTA 1000 titles, 13 Top level Premier titles, and 10 Tier 1 titles. For me I would do this article just like the other and only include events from 2021. Then have another article that encompasses all three totals. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedians should primarily follow the reliable sources, here that source is the WTA. Williams' 13 WTA 1000 titles is not my opinion, but the opinion of the WTA. ;) Your concept to have an article from 2021 and another article that encompasses all three totals is apparently suitable. Kacir 00:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- Actually the WTA is a primary source and we are taught to use secondary sources whenever possible. In the past the WTA totaled the Tier 1 and Premier Mandatory/5 events. In their weird redo they omitted the Tier 1. Someone there seems to have some issues. And if the WTA is shown to be inadequate we especially use other sources. The WTA and ATP have already been shown to have issues with flags for Russia and Belarus, and this seems to be another issue. I might put all these categories together in one article to keep things together, but if you have separate Tier 1 and Premier articles, it makes sense to me to also have a separate WTA 1000 article from 2021 only. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:36, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- The WTA is in the making of statistics the most authoritative source, especially when it comes to counting titles. Both secondary and tertiary sources should follow ATP/WTA/ITF, which organize circuits and tournaments. In the same way, for example, we list 11 not 6 titles titles in the Czech Republic BJK team and only 1 title in the Slovakia team, although the Czech Republic was only created in 1993. It is also the ITF's decision on how to deal with the titles. Kacir 09:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Where did you ever hear that about the making of statistics pray tell? Do you realize how much we have to find from sources in old newspaper clippings that the WTA does not have? Plus how many times the WTA/ATP/and ITF contradict themselves through the years? Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- These are all examples of statistical information provided by the WTA/ATP: WTA1, WTA2, WTA3, WTA4, ATP. As I wrote above, different information from one source can change the situation. For example, if the three WTA articles state that Serena Williams has won 0 or 13 or 23 WTA 1000 titles.Kacir 10:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Where did you ever hear that about the making of statistics pray tell? Do you realize how much we have to find from sources in old newspaper clippings that the WTA does not have? Plus how many times the WTA/ATP/and ITF contradict themselves through the years? Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:10, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- The WTA is in the making of statistics the most authoritative source, especially when it comes to counting titles. Both secondary and tertiary sources should follow ATP/WTA/ITF, which organize circuits and tournaments. In the same way, for example, we list 11 not 6 titles titles in the Czech Republic BJK team and only 1 title in the Slovakia team, although the Czech Republic was only created in 1993. It is also the ITF's decision on how to deal with the titles. Kacir 09:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- Actually the WTA is a primary source and we are taught to use secondary sources whenever possible. In the past the WTA totaled the Tier 1 and Premier Mandatory/5 events. In their weird redo they omitted the Tier 1. Someone there seems to have some issues. And if the WTA is shown to be inadequate we especially use other sources. The WTA and ATP have already been shown to have issues with flags for Russia and Belarus, and this seems to be another issue. I might put all these categories together in one article to keep things together, but if you have separate Tier 1 and Premier articles, it makes sense to me to also have a separate WTA 1000 article from 2021 only. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:36, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedians should primarily follow the reliable sources, here that source is the WTA. Williams' 13 WTA 1000 titles is not my opinion, but the opinion of the WTA. ;) Your concept to have an article from 2021 and another article that encompasses all three totals is apparently suitable. Kacir 00:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- Here's something else you will find in going through archives of the WTA. Their totals don't match because they change their rules on occasion. What was a total in 2010 is no longer the same total. This happens a lot! They are not always the best source for totals. I would certainly not list it your way. I would list 0 WTA 1000 titles, 13 Top level Premier titles, and 10 Tier 1 titles. For me I would do this article just like the other and only include events from 2021. Then have another article that encompasses all three totals. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:52, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Serena has won zero WTA 1000 singles titles – The WTA, as the organizer of the circuit, effectively sets and determines the rules, and only the WTA creates the relevant statistics because it's its circuit. In this perspective, perhaps to list 13 WTA 1000 + 10 Tier I titles. Of course, if the WTA would list a different number of titles in its articles, then that changes the situation. Kacir 23:44, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- In actuality Serena has won zero WTA 1000 singles titles. That category name was not invented till 2021. Usually WTA Tier I...WTA Premier Mandatory/Premier 5...WTA 1000 are all synonymous. They are simply category name changes. Some lump the records together and some don't. What is strange about our articles is that we separated them into three different articles. It's not strange that we separated them but the stats are sometimes separated and sometimes not. In our Tier one article we have Serena with ten singles titles. In the next incarnation we have our article with Serena winning 13 Premier Mandatory/Premier 5 singles titles. Then our new article on WTA 1000 tournaments it is not since inception of 2021, it's all the categories since 1990. Since the "WTA 1000" article is different than the other two articles, it makes it somewhat confusing to our readers. The WTA itself has confused readers with their arbitrary records of not including Tier 1 events. I'm not sure what the best fix is since tennis has always been convoluted in its tournament hierarchy. I know that Serena Williams either won 0 WTA 1000 events or 23 WTA 1000 events, but to convey that isn't straightforward. Add to the fact that the WTA website changed a few years ago and has been unreliable and messy since then. Tennis Abstract lumps all them together for Serena since 1995. My thoughts here would be that since this article lists champions from 1990 onwards, the records should be of the same timeframe. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- I see. The problem, however, is that Wikipedia is a tertiary, not primary source. This means that Wikipedia itself should not create facts that contradict the reliable sources (Serena Williams has won a record 23 WTA 1000 singles titles), and in this case even with the most reliable source – the Women's Tennis Association, which itself organizes the circuit and creates statistics (Serena Williams has won a record 13 WTA 1000 singles titles); No original research. Kacir 10:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- It's just a mechanical change of the website that corresponds to the present. If you look at Carlsbad in August 1990 (Southern California Open), it has a WTA 500 category. This is a mistake, because it was Tier III (WTA 250) then and the WTA 500 corresponds to the category in 2023. BTW, it was played in Carlsbad only from 1991, in 1990 it held in San Diego. 1990 Bausch & Lomb in April has WTA 250, although it was part of Tier II (WTA 500) then.
- I get where you are coming from, but in 2021 with the latest WTA category renewal, WTA retconed all the previous series (WTA Tier I, Premier Mandatory, Premier 5, WTA 1000) by renaming the old names under one name WTA 1000. See WTA 1990 calendar. Qwerty284651 (talk) 01:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- I understand, but the concept of the article titled as WTA 1000 is wrong, because WTA 1000 and its predecessor didn't exist before 2009. So titles should not be counted before that date. IMHO this contradicts the RS from the WTA itself. Kacir 01:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Well obviously I or Qwerty haven't been convinced of a change, but maybe others will be in the future. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- I checked the Talk because I wrongly assumed that "23" was a mis-attribution of Grand Slam titles. What about a longer caption? adding (or 13, or 0, depending on what is counted) RichardFloyd (talk) 22:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
10 WTA 1000 events in 2024
[edit]There is a discussion on the Tennis project's talk page about a 10th WTA 1000 event being added in 2024. Other editors are invited to contribute by weighing in on the matter. Qwerty284651 (talk) 00:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)