Talk:Weltdeutsch

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Feedback from New Page Review process[edit]

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Very nice job on the article.

Onel5969 TT me 09:26, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 12:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that Weltdeutsch was a language created by Nobel Prize laureate and pacifist Wilhelm Ostwald in an episode of chauvinistic fervour? Source: [1]
    • Reviewed:
    • Comment: This is my fourth DYK, so QPQ not required; I think I shall add one nevertheless.

Created by Frzzl (talk). Self-nominated at 11:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Weltdeutsch; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Article is new enough and long enough, no copyright concerns. Author doesn't need a QPQ. Pretty interesting topic and I like the hook - particularly the contrast between pacifism and chauvinism. I've been able to verify this through the source provided, but I do note that the term "chauvinism" may be slightly too creative when it comes to interpreting the source, and may be better replaced with the word "nationalism". Otherwise, there are two outstanding issues: 1) Ostwald's pacifism isn't explicitly mentioned with an inline source in the article, and it needs to be. 2) I've tagged a couple of places in the article with citation needed tags, which need to be addressed. --GGT (talk) 16:10, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for the review, I have fixed said problems. I added more refs while doing so, and in a happily found a source which used the exact words "chauvinistic fervour"[2], so I think I am fine using it. Hope all is well following those changes, Frzzl (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks a lot. I can't currently access this reference but I will AGF on it. My concerns seem to have been resolved, and I think this is now good to go. --GGT (talk) 15:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Leber, Christoffer (2020-08-24). Kosuch, Carolin (ed.). Freethinkers in Europe: National and Transnational Secularities, 1789−1920s. De Gruyter. pp. 196–197. doi:10.1515/9783110688283. ISBN 978-3-11-068828-3.
  2. ^ Forster, Peter G. (1982-12-31). The Esperanto Movement:. DE GRUYTER. p. 134. doi:10.1515/9783110824568. ISBN 978-90-279-3399-7.

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Weltdeutsch/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 20:33, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:33, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! I'm very glad to have someone so experienced in the ways of the GA process reviewing this; sorry for issues that may pop up, this is my first time trying this. Frzzl (talk) 21:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I hope I don't disappoint you! It's a very interesting article and I hope I can do your work justice. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The images are fine for GA, but File:Monistiche Sonntagspredigten.jpg is actually public domain -- see the Hirtle chart; it was first published outside the US. You may want to change the licence; that's up to you.

  • I ran Earwig on the article and it's fine, but I did notice that the German quote flags a spelling difference -- the text found online has "Gedanke" rather than "Gedanken". Can you check your source and make sure it's correct as you have it.
  • The lead is a little short -- it should summarize the article, and here you only have two sentences.
  • Not a problem for GA, but FYI you don't need the "Further information" link at the top of the "Background" section -- that would be useful if there were no link to Ostwald's article, but since his name is linked right at the start of that section we don't need the extra link.
  • Shouldn't "Interlinguistics" have a lower-case initial "i"? Similarly for "Volapükologist".
  • "being first introduced to the science as a Volapükologist by Arthur von Oettingen": I wonder about this phrasing. If you mean his first interlinguistic interest was in Volapük, he presumably became a volapükologist, rather than was one at the time he was introduced to it.
  • Suggest linking Ido.
  • "shattering the Esperanto movement" -- I know Ido was a major setback, but does the source really support "shattering"? The Esperanto movement wasn't destroyed.
  • "During the First World War, German nationalism propagated greatly, especially in the German Monistic movement": the link to "monism" isn't helpful for understanding this, so I think a bit more explanation is needed inline. And I'm not really sure what you mean by "propagated greatly" -- do you mean "grew in strength"? I read the German article you link, and I'm not sure why the league is relevant -- it seems Ostwald's nationalism came into strong conflict with the pacifists in the league, and he was forced to resign. Obviously his signing of the Manifesto of the Ninety-Three is relevant, but what's the relevance of the GML? Was any part of his Weltdeutsch ideas published or propagated via the League, or with the support of the League?
  • Can we get links for Liechtenstein or Schultz, or failing that is any more information about their work available? I can see it's likely to be completely unconnected to Ostwald's ideas but it would be useful to say what they did to separate it from Ostwald's Weltdeutsch.
  • When did Pfaundler send his letter?

Once these points are addressed I'll read through again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Frzzl, are you still planning on working on this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:35, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Mike,
Sorry for the inactivity; school's reared it head, so I became unexpectedly busy. I've addressed all save one points, and I hope to finish the last one this afternoon. Apologies for the long delay
Frzzl (talk) 10:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC) Frzzl (talk) 10:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No problem; if you're still working on it that's fine. Leave a note here when you're done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie I think I've made some solid improvements addressing your points; how do you think I did, and what can I improve?
Frzzl (talk) 14:17, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your changes look good. I'll read through again shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second pass[edit]

  • The new paragraph in the lead has a few punctuation errors. I think I know what's intended: how about "The language consisted of Standard German with some orthographic and phonemic simplifications, but was never full developed. After publication, there was little further interest in Weltdeutsch; it was not taken up by any German institutions, and was denounced as an act of chauvinism by the internationalist circles which Ostwald had been part of."?
  • "Outside of the work published in Monistische Sonntagspredigten, little is known about the language; Ostwald may have left it simply as theory, and it never developed or was put in practise" Given that the source explicitly says it remained a theory I think we can be more definite here.
  • The last part of the first paragraph in the "Features" section is uncited.
  • Gordin's account of Ostwald's response to Pfaundler's letter seems worth using as a source for a few sentences at the end of the article -- page 162 of Scientific Babel.

That's everything from a second read. I'll do some spotchecks shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks[edit]

Footnote numbers refer to this version.

  • FNs 10 & 11 cite 'As an internationalist, Ostwald was also a pacifist, deeming pacifism a "scientific duty".' I don't have access to either of these; can you quote the supporting text?
  • FN 4 cites "He later became a member of the Delegation for the Adoption of an International Auxiliary Language at the behest of one of its founders, Louis Couturat (later cocreator of Ido) in October 1903, and later chaired it in 1907 when it introduced Ido". I don't see a mention of Couturat in this source, or 1903.
  • FN 16 cites "as part of the German colonial empire. Aside from uses as an easy to learn form of German, Ostwald also promoted Weltdeutsch as a new international language for science." The second sentence is verified; the last fragment of the previous sentence should get another source, since de Kloe only takes generally about German cultural influence rather than explicitly about colonial possessions.
  • FN 24 cites "Arguing that the "pointless squandering of energy that lies in the multiplicity and irregularity of older linguistic forms" needed to be eliminated". Verified.
  • FN 9 cites "Aside from Ido, Ostwald also joined Peano's Academia pro Interlingua, supporting Latino sine flexione." The given page doesn't mention Latino sine flexione, though the book does mention it elsewhere, so I would suggest adding another page to the citation.

Some minor inconsistencies in three of the four I was able to check. Can you go through the article and make sure that all the text is fully supported by the citations? Then I'll do another spotcheck. The article can't be promoted if the spotcheck fails; normally I'd fail an article with this many errors, but these are minor and the article is very short so I think if you're up for rechecking the citations I can keep it open. If you're busy with schoolwork this can wait a bit; a week is certainly no problem. I'll check in a week if I haven't heard from you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN 10 - "As an ardent pacifist, Ostwald considered war the most horrible waste of energy."
FN 11 - "Within Germany, and particularly within the monistic movement, he was often regarded as a proponent of pacifism and arrtimilitarist ideas. Before the war, Ostwald termed pacifism a ‘scientific duty’ and urged that France should take the initial steps toward reconciliation with Germany" (the misspelling of antimilitarist is sic)
Mostly OK, but I don't think we can say "internationalist" based on those sources, can we? Unless it's a term more closely related to pacifism than I was aware of. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, replaced with "interlinguistic". Frzzl (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Will check refs + fix issues now. Frzzl (talk) 18:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FN 16 - On page 144, de Kloe argues that '“Weltdeutsch”, was a linguistic tool that was supposed to contribute to the contruction of this new German empire'. Would that not support the point of colonialism? Either way I need to change the ref, but I'll remove the phrase if that doesn't fit. Frzzl (talk) 18:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, that works fine. I missed that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:47, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mike Christie Right, I've checked over the refs, improved a couple of them. I think it's now ready for a second spotcheck? Thanks for all the work so far. Does that all look good? Frzzl (talk) 20:05, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second spotcheck -- footnote numbers refer to this version. I don't have access to any of these; can you quote the supporting text?

  • FN 6 cites "greatly disrupting the Esperanto movement".
  • FNs 14 & 15 cite "During the First World War, German nationalism was popularised even amongst pacifists such as Ostwald. Ostwald was a signatory of the Manifesto of the Ninety-Three, and expressed his newfound nationalistic sentiments, alongside speeches and sermons, through the creation of his Weltdeutsch"
  • FN 4 cites "Arguing that the "pointless squandering of energy that lies in the multiplicity and irregularity of older linguistic forms" needed to be eliminated".

In addition there's one unstruck point above -- there's unsourced text in the "Features" section. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:56, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN 15: "Traktante hike la agado di prof. Wilhelm Ostwald por linguo internaciona, me ne darfas obliviar kelke stranja epizodo en sua pensado ed agado lingual, nam la ideo di ula WELTDEUTSCH (Mondgermana). Okazione la komenco dil unesma mondomilito, quale multi, anke Ostwald falis aden german-nacionala raviseso. Kun altri il signatis "Advoko a la kultur-mondo", en qua sustenesis la germana militado." (Ido), English is "Dealing with the activity of prof. Wilhelm Ostwald for an international language, I must not forget a few strange episodes in his linguistic thinking and activity, namely the idea of a WELTDEUTSCH (World German). On the occasion of the beginning of the First World War, like many, even Ostwald fell into a German-national ravishment. With others he signed "Advocacy to the cultural world", in which the German military was supported.
FN 14 - "After years of active collaboration with pacifist circles, Ostwald radically altered his opinion: in October 1914, he and Haeckel signed the public Manifest der 93 (Appeal of 93 professors to the Civilized World) refusing the accusations by the Allies.", "Ostwald’s nationalistic Sunday sermons of late 1914 and 1915 further complicated his relationship with those monists who remained active pacifists."
I can remove the "even among pacifists" if you think that would be safer.
FN 4 - 'But there, alas, was the rub, for German was “still in a comparatively primitive state”‡; that is to say, it was too complicated. Citing Otto Jespersen’s linguistic research, Ostwald insisted that as languages progressed they simplified, shedding inflections, genders, and as-pects as they streamlined themselves to charge into modernity. “That is the natural development of every language that is found among all the other means of communication and that is nothing but an expression of the most general law of development,” declared the Nobelist who introduced thermodynamics into chemistry, “namely of the energetic imperative, whereby the pointless squandering of energ y that lies in the multiplicity and irregularity of older linguistic forms is increasingly constrained.”'
FN 6 - I'm going to change this reference to a digital one in English, which makes it more accessible. The new reference is this article from The New Republic.
Fixed the unsourced text.
Hope that's looking OK, Frzzl (talk) 09:44, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The spotchecks are clean, and I see you added the last neded citation, so passing. Congratulations! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:36, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much! That was certainly rigorous haha, but very educational! All the work you've put in is much appreciated. Frzzl (talk) 10:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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