Talk:Westgate, Nairobi

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Israeli-owned?[edit]

There seems to be confusion whether the mall is Israeli-owned or only one or a couple of businesses in the mall are Israeli-owned. Thoughts on how this should be written up in the article?

  • Jewish Press [1] (questionable RS): Israel’s Deputy Ambassador to Kenya Yaki Lopez and the embassy’s security officer arrived early in the afternoon Saturday at the command center of the local security forces, following the first reports about the attack. “We knew the shopping center is owned by Israelis and renowned as a place where many Israelis hang out,” Lopez told Maariv. “Four of the restaurants there are also owned by Israelis and many Israelis are employed in the place. They were our main concern—but we also support our Kenyan friends and ready to assist in whichever way they ask.”
  • The New York Times) [2]: Ilana Stein, a spokeswoman for Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said the attack took place near the ArtCaffe, an Israeli-owned coffee shop and bakery popular with foreigners that is one of 80 businesses in the mall. Ms. Stein said that one Israeli had been lightly injured, that three others had escaped unharmed and that Israelis had not been specifically targeted. “This time, the story is not about Israel,” Ms. Stein said. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Problematically, editor Middayexpress is also making this article unduly focus on the Israel connection (see diff [3]), in violation of WP:Undue. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
User:Plot Spoiler, Israel's Deputy Ambassador to Kenya, Yaki Lopez, states above quite plainly that the shopping center is Israeli-owned. He adds that four of the restaurants in the complex are also Israeli establishments (which presumably includes the ArtCaffe), and many of the employees are Israeli too. The real question is, which source challenges Israeli ownership of Westgate? Middayexpress (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many sources don't go so far as to report that ownership of the entire mall complex is Israeli. E.g. [4]: "Nairobi's exclusive shopping center has four stories and more than 80 shops, including supermarket, jewelery stalls, and some Israeli-owned stores. Visitors to the area can also enjoy the tropical gardens and artificial water falls." If the mall itself is Israeli-owned, why has nothing been reported on which company or individual owns it? Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's established that a number of the stores within the complex are also Israeli-owned. The Israeli Deputy Ambassador indicates as much [5]. Haaretz likewise interviewed one of Westgate's Israeli owners, Alex Trajtenberg: "The Westgate mall, with shops like Nike, Adidas and Bose, has Israeli ownership, and security personnel have in the past identified the mall as a likely terror target in the city. Haaretz spoke on the phone with one of the Israeli owners, Alex Trajtenberg, who confirmed he is a partner in the mall but declined to comment further." Middayexpress (talk) 16:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Does not make clear whether mall is exclusively owned by Israelis, or an Israeli is one of the partners that owns the mall, or just even a single store. Plot Spoiler (talk) 17:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The link clearly states that Westgate mall (not just one store in it) "has Israeli ownership" and "Israeli owners". It also names one of those Israeli owners. Middayexpress (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Patience pays dividends: "The upmarket Westgate shopping complex is part Israeli-owned." [6] "Westgate Mall is at least partially owned by Israelis... Four restaurants inside the mall are Israeli-run or owned, including a branch of Arcaffe, which was reportedly the first location inside the mall targeted by the terrorists." [7] Plot Spoiler (talk) 02:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sources refer anecdotally to some of the shops being owned by Israelis. That does not mean that the centre itself is owned by Israelis.203.184.41.226 (talk) 05:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The mall developer is apparently israeli, thats came out a while ago(Lihaas (talk) 15:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

Upmarket[edit]

The mall is generally described as upmarket, not "upscale" - which means something entirely different to those who are not American.203.184.41.226 (talk) 06:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources have said and inferred that it targeted an elite establishement (in the early days at leasT)(Lihaas (talk) 15:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

Mass shooting or terrorist attack?[edit]

thoughts? --65.51.209.126 (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The victims succumbed both to shooting wounds and to shrapnel from hand grenades. Given the common US connotation of assigning the moniker "shooting" (mall shooting, school shooting, post office shooting) to individuals, it would seem more pertinent to denote this one as what it really is: a terrorist attack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.135.16 (talk) 07:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed floors[edit]

I think this reference needs to be updated as images of the site show the collapse occurred in the parkade, not in the mall itself. 68.146.70.124 (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tense[edit]

Is or was? Three collapsed floors hints towards was. And I need to take this jumper back too... Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 13:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the building still exists, and we don't yet know if it is going to be rebuilt, reopened in whole or in part, or demolished. Leave the article as it is at the moment, until we know more. No need to rush. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:23, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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