Talk:Whitechapel Bell Foundry

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John & Robert Owen[edit]

John & Robert Owen are recorded as the founders of one of the guns from the Mary Rose which sank in 1545. John Owen is recorded in the list of founders on the main page between 1538 and 1553. Was there a history or gun founding at Whitechapel, and could these be the same man? I've raised the question at Talk:Mary_Rose, if anyone has any information can they go there and add it please. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 12:00, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting question @Martin of Sheffield:, the foundry was certainly used for munitions during the war. Was there a founders' mark on them? I suggest you get in touch with Alan Hughes if you haven't already as he is likely to know if there is a connection, his email is on the website, don't hang about though! Mramoeba (talk) 14:23, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"ROBERT AND JOHN OWYN BRETHERYN BORNE IN THE CYTE OF LONDON THE SONNES OF AN INGLISH MADE THYS BASTARD ANNO DNI 1537" Note that a "Bastard" is a type of gun, not an expletive. Which website is Alan's email on? I could only see the general enquiries on WBF's official site. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:09, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the general enquiries one would get to him, or be forwarded. From my visit it seemed like they take a real pride in the history of the foundry. I also emailed your question to one of the Mary Rose learning department. Mramoeba (talk) 19:06, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Done Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've just had an email from Alan in which he confirms the WBF link to John Owen. He observes that bell founders had "a lot uniquely, large metling facilities" and agrees that they were employed in wartime for casting bronze cannons. However he cannot add anything to the observed coincidence. I have managed to find out a little more about the gun founders though. John Owen was either the elder brother or father of Thomas Owen. John & Robert worked under the Frenchman Peter Baude of Calais. In 1530 Peter Baude cast a bell which found its way to the Catholic church of St Edward, Sutton Park (aka Sutton place), Surrey. In 1535 the gun foundry was established in Houndsditch and on Baude's death John became "Bombardarum nostrarum fabricatori" or King's guns founder. Robert leaves the historical record in 1540 and John died shooting London bridge in 1553. In 1571 Thomas resigns the office and the gun foundry in Houndsditch closes. And thereby hangs another coincidence - where do you think WBF was before its move to Cheapside? Yes, Houndsditch, hard by Aldgate. I think a bit more research is called for, but this is looking interesting. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:53, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great research! So John dies in a shooting the same year the tenure of the master bell founder John Owen ends and a new one takes over, and the two(?) foundries were in the same part of town. I can see that two foundries might locate in the same area for expediency, but nevertheless it's intriguing. In 1570 WBF is officially established (on paper), having had an earlier incarnation under some other title, in 1571 Thomas Owen closes his gun foundry in Houndsditch. Have you found the original research by 'bell historian George Elphick'? This is turning out to be very interesting! No reply from the Mary Rose people, i'm hoping it's being passed to the right person rather than ignored :/ Keep us posted Mramoeba (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Err - shooting the bridge is passing through the narrow arches where the currents are severe! The wherry overturned drowning Owen and another man. Doesn't affect the dates though! :-o Martin of Sheffield (talk) 18:51, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ha ha, my mistake, I thought it was turning into a crime thriller Mramoeba (talk) 19:57, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping this page up to date[edit]

I have reverted the recent good faith edits by @Lindacoudray:, purely because they sound like it has come straight from a PR company (in fact news posted to the WBF website). Appreciate the information nevertheless and if no one else gets to it, I will look for secondary sources when I have free time. In the meantime Lindacoudray is of course welcome to do that, with secondary sources and just check the wording so it isn't PROMO for the new company. (Incidentally if you have a connection to the company or other conflict of interest please remember to declare it and use talk for suggesting edits instead of editing directly). Thanks. Mramoeba (talk) 20:27, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some preliminary edits to this page, but it seems unclear how far the company is continuing under this present form. It seems that the company will nominally exist as Bells of Whitechapel Ltd., with patents having been sold to Appletons and bells being cast by Westley Group, and of course the foundry itself no longer existing. Henceforth there is some work to be done to the entire page to reflect that basically this institution doesn't actually exist any more. I'm mindful that Westley will probably wish to market the longevity and heritage of Whitechapel, but I don't know whether this entitles the article to continue in the present tense as an ongoing manufacturing business. I would like to read some more secondary sources on this, particularly as I don't think any of the ones i've seen recently are detached from the fight to preserve it, or are press releases. such as here. The name change seems to suggest this article should now go into the past tense. As ever I welcome input from others. Mramoeba (talk) 11:12, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now in past tense, and awaiting better sources. Mramoeba (talk) 11:29, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Really?!?[edit]

A building and company THIS historical,and NO ONE could have saved it last year?!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoredMe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A consortium of heritage organisations attempted to have it grade 1 listed and save it ‘to preserve it for the nation’ by purchasing the building and fittings at market value, but the owner decided to sell the foundry to developers and I guess ultimately it was his property to do with as he wanted. All operations and orders were transferred to another premises. But yes, it is a crying shame. Mramoeba (talk) 19:43, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]