Talk:Whitewater canoeing

Merger proposal

I think an article on whitewater boating would be appropriate and it should include canoes, kayaks, rafts and dories and possibly even craft like jetboats. But I think merging whitewater canoeing with whitewater kayaking would be a mistake for two main reasons. One is that the strokes in a canoe are quite different requiring a significantly steeper learning curve when compared to a kayak. Secondly, whitewater kayaking is always done in decked boats whereas whitewater canoeing is done in both decked and open canoes. A whitewater canoeist in an open canoe will often run different lines that a whitewater canoeist in a decked canoe or a whitewater kayak. 71.218.211.222 (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

• Support: Whitewater paddling or Whitewater boating Could work as a title, but the two are so closely related seperate articles will have a huge overlap. --Nate1481 09:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
• The two are completely different sports now a days canoeing is dyeing out and kayaking is growing so merging them would be a bad idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.228.83 (talk) 01:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Hardly dying out, less popular maybe but it is wildly about as tourist an alternative to rafting and most tours i've been on there a few at every playspot, -Nate1481 12:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support: Combining these articles would be a lot of work, but my experience is that -- in whitewater -- C1, C2 (canoe) activities are identical to K1, K2 (kayak) activities. In slalom and rodeo competitions canoes and kayaks compete in separate categories, but the paddlers do the same things, run the same courses, hit the same gates, do the same tricks, etc. When they run rivers and creeks, they run the same lines. They often use the same boats, but with different internal outfitting. One difference is that OC1, OC2 (open canoes filled with air bags) are very different from closed boats, and OK1, OK2 (open kayaks) hardly exist at all, except as sit-on-tops which are usually flatwater boats used for fishing and touring. But among decked boats with spray skirts, the difference between canoe and kayak is mostly a personal preference for sitting with a two-blade paddle (kayak) vs kneeling with a one-blade paddle (canoe). HowardMorland (talk) 12:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
• Support: (from email message) I agree with your philosophy on combining canoe/kayak. Even the open canoeists run a lot of the same stuff, same lines. It is all whitewater, navigated by different (related) crafts. Sometimes we even swim it ;-) Many paddlers paddle a variety of boats—changing the boat is like having a new water-body, like being a shark instead of a whale. Or sometimes a guppy instead of a manatee. Cathy Hearn, Coach, Canoe Slalom, USA Canoe Kayak. Posted by HowardMorland (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Support I would certainly agree that these should be merged especially with the lack of proper reference in this article, it would be wise to do just that.

Here is a list of related Wikipedia articles. I note that Kayak slalom and Canoe slalom have already been consolidated into one article, Whitewater slalom. Slalom is a specialty within whitewater boating.

Wikipedia Articles on Canoeing, Kayaking, and Whitewater

Name	Size	Hits per Day
Kayak	40k	500
Kayaking	4k	330
Whitewater kayaking	15k	80
Canoe	44k	460
Canoeing	13k	300
Whitewater canoeing	8k	13
Whitewater slalom*	12k	11
Whitewater racing**	8k	7
Playboating***	14k	28
Raft	2k	150
Rafting****	10k	320
* Kayak slalom and Canoe slalom redirect to Whitewater slalom
** This article is about long, narrow "wildwater" canoes and kayaks
*** Playboat, Playboats, and Playboaters redirect to Playboating
**** Whitewater rafting redirects to Rafting

The two articles Whitewater canoeing and Whitewater kayaking are both small, with much overlap, and have little traffic, but what would be the best name for a combined article? Whitewater boating would cover everything, but people might want to have canoe and kayak in the title. Since both canoes and kayaks use paddles, the term paddlesports covers them both. However, oared vessels are also used in whitewater, both dories and rafts, especially pontoon rafts. The person rowing the boat always faces forward and pushes on the oar handles rather than pulling.

My local Washington, DC, whitewater message board had the following interesting discussion about canoes vs kayaks. The Monocacy Canoe Club sponsors the board, but almost all the participants are kayakers. The message board discussion will be erased in a few weeks when the message board gets too full.

http://www.monocacycanoe.org/mccboard/messages/8973.html

HowardMorland (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

People must use the correct words. There is a hierarchy of strictly defined terms making up the classification of boats. The ICF definition of this sport is "Canoeing". Canoeing is the sport whether a kayak or a canadian type is used. Flatwater or Wildwater (Slalom) are the Olympic Discipline categories. Wildwater events are Slalom (Through gates) or Descent (either Classic or Sprint). The Classes are K1 (K for Kayak type) and C1, C2 where C indicates Canadian Class. It is quite wrong to take the class type-name and re-brand a 'new' sport (e.g. 'Kayaking'). The sport is known as Canoeing as it differentiates it from Rowing. The Canoe hullshape in plan view is elongated and comes to a point at both ends. This defines the sport. Kayak is the special name given to the type of canoe used by the Greenlanders or Inuit peoples. In their language it means "The boat of the men", which if applied might offend the Women canoeists! The Inuit would hunt in low-line stealth kayaks. They'd kill their quarry and paddle home, sending the women and youths in a "Umiak" (Boat of the women) to collect it. Canoeing and Kayaking? at this rate are you proposing women should have their own sport called "Umiaking"? ;-D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamikaze79.68.89.16 (talk) 22:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Two different paddling sports: Canoeing and Kayaking should be kept seperate. As a kayaker, I would never think to search "canoeing" when I wanted information about "kayaking". Perhaps a page on paddling in general: any non-motorized boat could be included. Yes some information overlaps, we use the same rivers, but the craft are completely different. 148.137.187.127 (talk) 17:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)Meghan Evans

It is important to remember that the meanings of words change throughout time as contemporary culture changes. Ask any kayaker and He or She will tell you that the word "kayak" does not canote any gender (regarless as to weather or when it may have). True, the word Kayak has its origins and meaning in the inuit culture, but modern usage of the craft has radicaly redifined its meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.78.221 (talk) 22:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

>C1, C2 where C indicates Canadian Class. So some say, but others say C indicates Canoe... Kayak means boat of men? Possibly, but as it is now, there is no Olympic womens canoeing... (http://www.justcanoeit.com/Content/default.asp) Ironic isn't it? Kanoniem (talk) 15:39, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

>whitewater kayaking and whitewater canoeing are two very different and separate sports. the "C" in C1 always stands for Canoe (not Canadian as some have previously misinformed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.93.154.34 (talk) 17:01, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Support: Canoes and kayaks perform the same things in whitewater. The only question remains what name to use. You may either use the british meaning of canoeing, which encompasses open canoes and kayaks, or use as a title whitewater paddling. As the International Canoe Federation covers canoes and kayaks, I prefer whitewater canoeing.--Mfranck (talk) 07:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

• Dissent: Non-kayakers often mistakenly refer to kayaking as rafting or canoeing. Combining these pages may further support the public misperception that kayaking and canoeing are the same thing. What yardstick can we use to decide whether two sports are similar enough to be combined onto one page. Are snowboarding and skiing combined? Are walking and running combined? I strongly oppose a merger, and believe many other kayakers and canoeists would feel the same way.--Seek writ awe there (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

• Dissent: As the whitewater kayaking site grows to describe in detail the sport the inter-relatability with whitewater canoeing will decrease. An example of this is the addition of the description of strokes, something that is entirely unique to kayaking in terms of specific technique ascribed to each stroke.Heard.james (talk) 20:22, 19 May 2009 (UTC

• Dissent: I don't think a merger is called for because the boats, paddles, and strokes are different. I think a whitewater boating page is a fine idea and it can link to kayaking or canoeing or rafting or boogie-boarding and so on. The goal should be to make it easier to find the information, and most searches are going to be on whitewater kayaking.(User:bionicboof) 05:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Photos?

I've got some public domain photos I took (and perhaps some video) of both whitewater kayak and whitewater canoe (same day) from the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. Would they be of help here? Rauterkus (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)