Talk:Wild Hunt/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Ronald Hutton

I do not believe that Hutton is a proper reference for this article since throughout the corpus of his writings he has contributed no original insights into the subject, other than to disregard the folk-motif as irrelevant and with no pagan heritage in his book, "Pagan Britain". Yet, he cites no references for this view--a view that he couches as though they are facts--save for his own personal opinion! Even within this Wiki article Hutton's citations scarcely add to the knowledge of the subject. In my personal opinion there are scholars with a much more vast knowledge on European paganism and folklore, yet Hutton often makes umbrella statements about ancient paganism that are always proven wrong after a closer examination with word by specialist scholars. Unfortunately, Hutton often has the habit of writing as if specialist scholars have it all wrong, (e.g., Celtic Studies scholars), yet he is correct by default. I have drawn this position from reading all of his published books and articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.20.64 (talk) 00:27, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

trimmed references in modern fantasy

I took out many references in modern fantasy including video games, etc., most not very notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.20.92 (talk) 17:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Mythical?

I don't understand. If it is mythical, how can historical figures be known to participate? -- Error 01:10, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)


"Comprised of wolf-packs of older trainers and retinues of younger men, the Hari ritually raided villages from May Day to Samhain (Halloween), usually around the new moons. These ritual raids were viewed as a way to keep the world in harmony, in balance." Perhaps this were better expressed in the quoted words of the historical sources it depends upon, or the historian's analysis. If any... --Wetman 00:15, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It appears that for some reasons that may be historical or tied to the nature of the myth, figures of at least partially human nature are preferred as hunt leaders to purely supernatural ones. You'll notice that in some places, the leader is still said to be an older god (Odin or Nuada), but in most cases, it is a man of historical significance, whose existence is already shrouded in myth (King Arthur), and who may have a reputation for being accursed... Actually, I'm surprised the Devil does not figure more prominently in medieval and post Renaissance tellings of the myth. --Svartalf 14:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
And, as events fall further into the past, they may be embroidered in their retelling. Memories fail, oral versions of the story may be misheard, overheard, etc, and some people purposely add to a story to give it more weight, or more credence, or for other purposes. --Badger151 04:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

garbled quote

O. Höfler writing in 1934, [considered] a connection to with an ecstatic Odin cult and to draw on recent customs from German-speaking areas.

the syntax is somehow broken. First "to with an ecstatic cult" is not right, and "he [considered] a connection and to draw on recent customs" is not right either. What is the actual quote? I cannot fix this like the typos. dab (ᛏ) 18:42, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

fixed it, thanks to Amazon's "search inside". dab (ᛏ) 18:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

maybe off topic

Every time I listen to the old country/rock tune Ghost Riders in the Sky I think of the Wild Hunt. I thought it was Celtic. Thanks for the info.

That is due to it being based on a similar American legend. It is Celtic, but also Germanic. It's probably slightly more common in the Germanic world (these days) as most of them have kept the tradition (Germany has a long tradition of it (as does England and the Scandinavian countries) for instance and has the most legends associated with it). I think all Indo-European cultures had the tradition at some point. So it could be thought of as Indo-European if that were the case.

The part of the text that mentions the song in this article is slightly incorrect, as the writer of the song did not just take the Wild Hunt tradition and set it in the west... It is a bonafide part of US folklore that the song references. Sigurd Dragon Slayer

I'm glad someone asked this in the Talk page. I was searching the article to see if there was any correlation.

Dalfser Muggen

by all appearances, the article now quotes a work due to appear only in May. dab (ᛏ) 11:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Wild Hunt and the chasse-galerie

Those are two varieties of the same legend. I believe if it relevant to merge them because it is basically the same thing, with different names. Actually, there are plenty more versions of these legends with plenty more names. If you speak French, you just have to look at the external links of the French article chasse-galerie to see that.

I vote no. They're not remotely related.
Yes, they are not remotely related. They are closely related. This is exactly why I want to merge these articles. Just look at what he have here (if you understand French) and compare with what's in the Wild Hunt article : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellequin#Historique

Sure they are related. However, the Chasse Galerie has become a legend of its own, if only because it has moved completely out of the Wild Hunt's traditional areas, integrated elements from folklores completely different from the original (Canada specific), and generally acquired a life of its own. If we were to merge all legends that are related, the Arthurian cycle would disappear and be merged with Celtic mythology. Of course, there's no question of doing that. --Svartalf 23:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Svartalf's right. "Wild Hunt" is a very broad category; "chasse-galerie," if I understood the somewhat incomplete French article, is a local and very specific articulation of the same phenomenon. The link to to the English-language chasse-galerie article does the job nicely. What I don't understand is why French Wikipedia doesn't have a more general article on the "mesnie hellequin" (typing in "mesnie hellequin" right now redirects you to the more specific chasse-gallerie); the phenomenon described by that term is virtually indistinguishable from some of the Wild Hunt narratives from medieval England. -- Estmere, 5 Aug 2006

Wiki:fr does not have as many potential contributors as the English, and competent folklorists are unfortunately uncommon. I would not presume to create such an article by myself, not having the expertise and sources to do a proper job of it. --Svartalf 09:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the merging idea either I can see more people looking up wild hunt than chasse-galerie. I had never heard of chasse-galerie until I clicked the wild hunt a minute ago. Whispering(talk/c) 17:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see a particular reason to merge the two. The chasse-galerie doesn't even seem to be similar to the Wild Hunt. There is not, for example, any hunting aspect. Supernatural beings make no appearance beyond enchanting the canoe. The event is a one-time occurrence, rather than a periodic one, like the Wild Hunt. I'd vote "No" for a merge.
Septegram 19:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I'm the one who suggested the merging. All of you so far agree not to merge the articles, so let's forget about it. I will remove the merge tag. This being said, I do believe it is relevant to link these articles somehow because those legends ARE related. By the way, chasse means hunt in French. The reason why the French Wikipedia doesn't have a more general article about mesnie hellequin is because I'm the one who wrote about it in the article and I did not think nor do think that creating a separate article is needed so far, the article not being that long. Parcemihi 12:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Hello. Is somebody still alive ? I'm just coming here. There is an article on French WP about Chasse-galerie. I just made one, more general, on the theme of Wild Hunts : Chasse fantastique. It is now France-focused, because we have thousands of different names and stories, not only chasse-galerie or menée-mesnie... Hellequin... but I will expand to other countries. Merging isn't necessary. Morburre (talk) 00:46, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"Middle Ages" section

I just noted an odd discrepancy in the Middle Ages section. The first line says, "Medieval legends are mostly from Germany." But nearly all the references that follow that line are from England. Either that line needs to be deleted, or a more substantial description of medieval German Wild Hunt legends needs to be added -- preferably the latter. --Estmere, 5 Aug 2006

The whole Middle Ages section is weird. Perchta is very rarely associated with the wild hunt. I believe the whole section has only been added to name a female mythological figure - because of feminist ideological reasons. I read four books about the wild hunt, and never had it anything to do with women or Perchta, or Diana from the roman mythology. This is completely out of place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.181.65.233 (talk) 02:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Oskorei = wild hunt

I heard somewhere that the term "Oskorei" is synonymous with the "Wild hunt". Is this correct? KarlXII 15:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


After reading Gundarssons article (see external ref.) I can see that it indeed is so. I will add a redirect to this article.KarlXII 15:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"Odin's Hunt in Sweden" -- a bunch of lies

Seems like the section Odin's Hunt in Sweden is one bunch of outright lies, probably stemming from one or a few very bad quality non-scientist fabulators from outside Götaland. There's no such thing as a recent Odin cult in Sweden, and especially not in Götaland, which was Christened first in Sweden. I propose the section is simply deleted. Said: Rursus (☻) 21:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you should contact Ebbe Schön (who is the source) instead.--Berig (talk) 13:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Estonian

See ending of the Grateful Prince http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19438/19438-h/volume1.html#Page_152 boy and girl running from Hades, as the spirits on clouds a re chasing them 3 separate times.

Galician

I am no expert in the Galician language, but isn't the quote "quen non vai de morto vai de vivo" rendered backwards (that is, morto and vivo are swapped)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.114.60.41 (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

You're right, the correct quote would be: "Vai de morto o que non foi de vivo." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.134.54 (talk) 13:06, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Missing sources

Is this article missing descriptions from other sources? The German wikipedia article mentions the following:

Other links:

Notes

References

  1. ^ Jacob Grimm: Deutsche Mythologie. Olms-Weidmann, Hildesheim 2003, ISBN 3-487-09817-2
  2. ^ Zimmerische Chronik, Band 4, Seite 122

- 84user (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Cernunnos and the werewolves

With great sorrow, I have deleted this marvelous invention, while keeping it in mind if I should ever script a graphic novel:

The wild hunt is often thought [of] as werewolves led by Cernnunos, the Horned God.

This was followed by the helpful citation "Insert footnote text here." According to text later in the article, this seems to be a unique occurrence in a particular work by an individual, not a traditional story that "is often thought." Cynwolfe (talk) 22:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

paranormal explanation

This is purely from personal sources and experience of this, I have no actual references.

It is known that our ancestors comitted animal and sometimes human sacrifices at the major solar holidays. The Wild Hunt legend comes from a spiritual anomaly created by the sheer amount of death from the sacrifices. They would actually see these ghosts, and indeed, would more often than not, be cursed by the evil of it- similar to Will o' wisp. Some villages had a tradition of timing it and joining in with a simultaneous mundane world parallel to capture the magic and prove their strength if they survived. They didn't have TV for entertainment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.112.144 (talk) 20:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm actually more interested in possible natural explanations. The article briefly references possible natural phenomenon, but doesn't dig any deeper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.73.140.230 (talk) 13:35, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Santa Compaña

This legend has many variants, depending on the region, but this is the first time that I read that San Andrés de Teixido has something to do with it. The legend I know says that your family/friends take your spirit to San Andrés, no Santa Compaña involved. The other way to reach San Andrés is by becoming an animal/insect and go by yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.134.54 (talk) 13:14, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Cranach the elder

In his painting from 1532, Melancholia, Cranach the elder has painted the Wild Hunt. What is known more about the Wild Hunt in Germany, besides the info in this article? 94.211.55.93 (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Linked to proper name of article, with piping. --Thnidu (talk) 01:51, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Removed Related Myths Section

This article claims that "M.M. Banks cautioned against viewing the Wild Hunt as a peculiarly European phenomenon, identifying a similar tale of cavalry being heard on the wind that was located in the early twentieth-century in the Ghats, India."

Unfortunately, that is not true. According to the Mythology Stack Exchange, the source cited in support of that claim does not actually support that claim [1].

I have removed that section.

References

  1. ^ "Is there an Indian Wild Hunt myth?". Mythology Stack Exchange. Stack Exchange. Retrieved 21 June 2015.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Christofian (talk • contribs)


To reproduce the stackexchange material here, Banks (1944) appears to be based on a report in Thompson, The Making of the Indian Princes (1943), p. 250, to the effect that a fierce battle of the Peshawa's cavalry on 29 January 1818 eventually "impressed [itself] on the communal mind so that to this day the villagers remember that spectacle [...] and the scamper of the horses' feet is heard on the wind." So the suggestion here is that the concept of "ghostly army passing in the storm" may arise spontaneously as a folk memory of a specific battle. It may still be quotable that Banks (1944) drew the connection to the European folk myth, it should just not be implied that anyone suggested "Indo-European" roots for it. Comparative mythology is hard, to be sure, and it easy to do it badly. "Lumpers" will be able to connect anything, and "splittes" will be able to "debunk" anything. This doesn't mean that comparative mythology cannot also be done well, it just means that it is hard, and that you need to know what you are doing, ideally from a vantage point of philological erudition of Grimm's calibre. --dab (𒁳) 09:45, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Re gender

In my edit summary for this edit I wrote "either gender": I meant to write "any gender". Just so you know. Nortonius (talk) 03:07, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

in my understanding, "gender" came to be used as a polite replacement for "sex" when this latter word acquired predominantly erotic connotations in the early 20th century. Since the 1970s or so, "gender" has also moonlighted in the ideological vocabulary of feminism and whatever it is (post/trans/meta-feminism)) that has grown from there; I am not aware that the ideological sense has yet displaced the generic meaning of "sex", but your edit summary seems to indicate that it is on the way of doing so. --dab (𒁳) 09:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. I've since been given to understand that mention of "any gender" is itself now behind the times. Nortonius (talk) 15:43, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
I do not think "any gender" is proper English. Either gender, or both genders, should suffice.210.185.169.143 (talk) 13:20, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Did you look at the linked edit, in which I changed the wording from "any gender"? That was rather the point of my original note above – that even "either male or female" may not be suitable – but changing it would depend on identifying a source for a character who cannot be described as male or female. Nortonius (talk) 14:03, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Article scope and quality

Unfortunately, the article shows traces of shoddy research and irresponsible editing based on poor or poorly understood references. The issue of the "Indian Wild Hunt" above is just an example.

In my understanding, the shape of the topic is as follows:

  • the "Wild Hunt" is at the core a feature of German folklore; here we have regional variations that are directly comparable
  • Grimm (1835) adduces material that is, indeed, directly comparable and shows a distribution of closely related folklore throughout the former territory of the Holy Roman Empire and neighbouring regions. Based on this, a common core of the German (and related) material in pre-Christian Germanic mythology is reconstructed.
  • We have Germanic (German, Scandinavian, English) material, as well as references from Latin, Slavic and Celtic Europe, in all cases from areas either directly affected or neighbouring either Germanic expansion or the HRE.
  • the earliest sources for this material are (high) medieval; specifically, the Scandinavian sources are not Old Norse, they reflect Christianised medieval folklore strongly influenced by German traditions.
  • We have enough medieval references to see that the concept is medieval, but the bulk of our material is of course early modern or modern; this distinction needs to be made; we also have some early medieval material, but this is so sparse and opaque that it can only be used in direct attribution to secondary literature and the interpretation given to it there.
  • Names for the Wild Hunt and its leader(s) are randomly jumbled together and poorly referenced. This mixes medieval with early modern or modern material, and even with "reconstructed" material such as "Old English Herlaþing" (the actual source is the 12th-century De Nugis Curialium, which has familia Herlethingi, implying a Herlethingus as the leader, whose name can in turn be turned into "he of Herla's thing", etc.) -- it's not an implausible reconstruction, but it needs to be made explicit, and it is far from evident once you begin involving Hellequin and Erlkönig.
  • the "popular culture" and "neopagan" parts are completely overblown. The page doesn't need to be aware of every TV script writer ever drawing "inspiration" from this, nor does it need to be informed that some people in San Francisco once performed a "ritual recreation". I am sure reception in modern pop culture can be discussed encyclopedically, and I understand Wikipedia by its nature tends to just accrete unstructured heaps of random pop culture items, but I am also sure this can be fixed with some effort (which I am perfectly happy to invest, just not indefinitely). --dab (𒁳) 10:22, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Are you suggesting that it was not Germanic, but German folklore, and that the other countries just imitated this? Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:32, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm in general agreement with Dab's observations about the state of the article. I'll put this on my priority rewrite list. :bloodofox: (talk)
I think replacing Germanic with German is not at all an improvement. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 10:29, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely not: in the modern sense, there were no "Germans" in the Middle Ages. Nortonius (talk) 10:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Of course there were. It's a Germanic phenomenom though, spanning across all germanic cultural areas originally. Sadly this article misses this and is very inaccurate and clearly written by people with no actual knowledge of the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.17.140.107 (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Constellations

Isn't it connected to the constellations Orion, Taurus, Canis Major and Minor, Leo, Lepus etc; which all appear in the night sky around the winter solstice in northern Europe? Orion seems to "visit" the earth with his "hunt" at this time of year, and most of the Wild Hunt legends describe it being at night, or in the sky. Plenty of sources suggest this interpretation, and there is evidence that ancient Germanic people saw Orion as Woden. And "Frigg's Distaff" as a name for Orion's sword links her to the legend too (cf. Artemis being closely linked with Orion in Greek mythology). Walshie79 (talk) 17:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Name Addition

I am requesting the addition of a name for the modern cultural references section of The Wild Hunter entry. Please add Mary Ellen Quire to the list of authors shown in the entry. For reference, please see http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Wild+Hunt. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22me30 (talk • contribs) 12:40, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I am also requesting the addition of Diana Gabaldon and her book The Scottish Prisoner, in which the Wild Hunt is central to the conspiracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B8D3:9B70:4965:EF61:750D:48DE (talk) 21:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Pennsylvania Dutch

Not surprising... this legend came to Pennsylvania with the German/Pennsylvania Dutch settlers: the "Ewich Yaeger" (Eternal Huntsman). There are several PA Dutch legends and regional ghost stories on this theme. I will seek out some citations. PurpleChez (talk) 16:11, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Santa Compaña

Is it normal than the Hispanic version of this myth Santa Compaña has a separate article, should it be fused into here?--ReyHahn (talk) 08:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I have proposed to merge the articles in Spanish Wikipedia due to lack consistency, sources and misnaming.--ReyHahn (talk) 11:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Fiction referring to the wild hunt

"The Wild Hunt" is the title of an episode in the TV series "Quatermass and the Pit" by Nigel Kneale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsampson45 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

No sources

This: "In West Slavic Central Europe it is known as divoký hon or štvaní (Czech: 'wild hunt', 'baiting'), Dziki Gon or Dziki Łów (Polish), and Divja Jaga (Slovene: 'the wild hunting party' or 'wild hunt'). Other variations of the same folk myth are Caccia Morta ('Dead hunt'), Caccia infernale ('infernal hunt'), or Caccia selvaggia ('wild hunt') in Italy; Estantiga (from Hoste Antiga, Galician: 'the old army'), Hostia, Compaña and Santa Compaña ('troop, company') in Galicia; Güestia in Asturias; Hueste de Ánimas ('troop of ghosts') in León; and Hueste de Guerra ('war company') or Cortejo de Gente de Muerte ('deadly retinue') in Extremadura. "

Is completely unsourced. It#s also hard to believe, that there is any tradition of a wild hunt among slavs. Even though the article takes the stance against a germanic origin of the theme, it obviously is rooted in germanic folk myths.

It is stated, that it's unlikely that it's of germanic origin because these tales exist in northern, western and central europe. This makes no sense at all. All areas that actually have traditional tales of the wild hunt theme are directly connected with the germanic peoples. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.24.246.26 (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

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