Talk:WRC2

On 7 April 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from World Rally Championship-2 to WRC2. The result of the discussion was moved.

S-WRC[edit]

I am proposing that we change the acronym SWRC to S-WRC as per wrc.com. See here for lots of examples. Bjmullan (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WRC2[edit]

Should not we re-name the article to WRC2, according to the latest regulations? A Obeidat (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we should.

WRC2 is not called World Rally Championship-2.

Same with World Rally Championship-3 and World Rally Championship-3 (2013–2018); they are just WRC3. Junior World Rally Championship was last called that in 2010.

In short, these are not World championships, but a full explanation is here and if these names matter to the FIA, it should be reflected here. Rally Wonk (talk) 20:12, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have been bold and requested a page move to WRC2 as there was no response to the comment above. Rally Wonk (talk) 15:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RM[edit]

OK I requested a page move to WRC2 but it has been said to be potentially contentious because of the post above, but that refers to the SWRC days before being moved to the current space. So I thought it would be best to fully explain and give opportunity for discussion and gain support/opposition.

As explained in the sporting regs, WRC2 is a support championship of the World Rally Championship. Both championships are owned by the FIA. The FIA also has rules in the International Sporting Code surrounding the use of the word 'world' in championships. The application of these rules is easily demonstrable from when Junior World Rally Championship could not comply in 2007, it became known as Junior Rally Championship. After 2010, it has never been called Junior World Rally Championship because it doesn't leave Europe or have more than one car make.

Also, in Article 1 of the regs, it's explained the specific championship titles. Since the introduction of WRC2 (and WRC3) in 2013 there has never been a FIA World Rally Championship 2 for Drivers title awarded, it has always been FIA WRC2 Championship for Drivers This matters because the championship winners are not world champions, for the above reason. Stenos points this out, and the twitter post mentioned is proof. As he says, these are ‘WRC’ branded championships not world rally championships.

If I could reverse interrogate, I would ask for proof that WRC2 stands for World Rally Championship 2. There is none unless it's a video game. Even searches for site:wrc.com "World Rally Championship 2" cannot help.

As for acronyms, the FIA never used the en dash. Regs were always with a space until 2019 (WRC 2, WRC 2 Pro, WRC 3). In 2020 they became WRC2 and WRC3. Even before 2013, SWRC and PWRC were used. I believe wrc.com used dashes historically, irrelevant as they don't now, and they are the promoter not the owner. As explicitly said in the first sentence of each of these articles, they are about the FIA championships.

So this is why I propose moving to WRC2 or FIA WRC2 or even WRC2 Rally Championship. And similar moves for WRC3 and JWRC. Rally Wonk (talk) 23:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move to WRC2 Championship, WRC3 Championship, and Junior WRC Championship respectively per the sporting regulation. Season articles may also within the moving scope. Unnamelessness (talk) 04:26, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural suggestion[edit]

@Rally Wonk: I haven't seen any purple tag placed at the top of any page that you requested to move. Given there are multiple pages within the scope, you would have to follow WP:RMPM. Unnamelessness (talk) 04:22, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 December 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn(non-admin closure) Rally Wonk (talk) 14:24, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– The new are the up-to-date or correct terms as used by the FIA, the owner and organiser of these championships and are also in line with wp:commonnames and wp:namechanges policies as used by journalistic media and social media trends. Rally Wonk (talk) 11:10, 18 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 03:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Unnamelessness (talk) 11:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Rpo.castro (talk) 16:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If these are the "correct and up to date terms", can we see some evidence of this? Even if these are the WP:OFFICIALNAMEs, is there any evidence that these are the WP:COMMONNAMEs of these subjects as used by independent reliable sources? HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 18:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the topic above for more detail on why they are currently officially incorrect, WP:RM; and the sporting regulations including the proposed new names which have been used for a decade. I'll add the official Junior WRC social media accounts use that term.

As for common names, I don't think anybody outside of Wikipedia, whether officials, media or third parties use anything else but WRC2 or WRC3. An internet search for "World Rally Championship 2" for example, only links to this article and its clones, and the historic video game of the same name. A search for "WRC2" gets results for the official site, the participant's official sites, social media, various publishing/magazine media... etc etc. A Twitter search shows about as much use of "WRC2" in the last hour than "World Rally Championship 2" did in all of 2022 and these latter are mostly of the game again.

Junior World Rally Championship does return some search results other than its Wikipedia article but not high quality results, and by far not as common as JWRC or Junior WRC (Google Trends). Twitter usage concurs. IMO nobody uses this term orally, probably because it's a mouthful! Rally Wonk (talk) 22:45, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving WRC2 and WRC3 articles, (somewhat procedurally) Oppose moving Junior article - With the WRC2 and WRC3 examples it does seem that these are both the WP:COMMONNAMEs and the WP:OFFICIALNAMEs of the respective competitions. In the case of the JWRC I think a separate conversation is needed. There may be an argument for splitting the current Junior World Rally Championship article (given there are currently two articles about different incarnations of "WRC3"), with it being particularly questionable whether the WRC Academy Cup that ran for two years in the early 2010s is a part of the same lineage. There is also the fact that "Junior World Rally Championship" (as opposed to "Junior WRC") has been an WP:OFFICIALNAME in the past and that version of the name actually defines the "WRC" acronym, which makes the title's meaning clearer to readers. If the 2000s incarnation was a world championship while the 2010s incarnation is not that is also a possible argument for splitting, although coverage in sources would need to be considered. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 06:17, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"There is also the fact that "Junior World Rally Championship" (as opposed to "Junior WRC") has been an WP:OFFICIALNAME in the past and that version of the name actually defines the "WRC" acronym"

But have you assumed that? The argument is that no definition is officially given, what WRC means here is implied or deliberately left vague by the FIA, which makes more sense when in the past they have said "you cannot call it Junior World Rally Championship" because of conditions that still exist which aren't being met by modern Junior WRC. For me at least, not being incorrect overrules the common name aspect.

Happy to have the conversation on splitting the article but there is usually World Motor Sport Council or press releases, or 3rd party sources to suggest each change replaced the previous, and commonly, the champions are all celebrated together. Rally Wonk (talk) 17:37, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The abbreviations are unrecognisable to many people. The official names as used in primary sources do not count for much. Andrewa (talk) 21:51, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This isn't just a question of common names versus official names, it's about the current titles being verifiably incorrect (although IMO, not even common). Please see various essays and policy on Truth. Rally Wonk (talk) 13:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think you misunderstand the policy and practice here, depending on what you mean by verifiably incorrect. This seems to be a similar argument to that of the corporate flunky who wanted to change a page name to reflect reality in terms of our company page. The reality our page titles reflect is that of English usage. Similarly, if English speakers use a name, it's not verifiably incorrect, just the opposite. It may be that English would be improved if they used some other name instead but here is not the place to work for that. But if you can provide evidence that the abbreviations are common and would be at least as recognisable as the current titles, that would be relevant. Andrewa (talk) 07:03, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks John.

I have already mentioned google search results and social media usage that show nobody but Wikipedia users and scrapers are using eg. "World Rally Championship 2", and that any independent parties I find are overwhelmingly exclusively using "WRC2". I'll add that Wikipedia has tremendous power to influence the creation of further incorrect sources in the rally space, which creates a negative feedback loop which I think we should work to avoid.

As said, I cannot think of a single credible person or outlet, official or otherwise, who uses "World Rally Championship 2". You said: "The abbreviations are unrecognisable to many people". I must counter, please can you provide any source, context or evidence for this claim to aid the discussion, that itself isn't derived off these Wikipedia articles? It absolutely bewilders me and is extremely difficult to believe that anybody who is familiar with the topic would make such a statement, it borders on questionable disingenuousness. So I'll hold the conversation about policies for now John, as I'm not sure there's any point. Rally Wonk (talk) 14:53, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject World Rally has been notified of this discussion. – robertsky (talk) 03:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oppose in this situation, WP:commonname trumps official name. The proposed titles also fails recognisability. After reading the them, to me, they sound like some championship regarding robots. We also have a policy that says to avoid abbreviations, I forgot the name of the policy. It is the reason why CIA, DIA, and FBI are not abbreviated. If you are concerned about search results, simply convert these proposed titles into redirects, they are valid titles for redirects. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:42, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input @Usernamekiran. Would you be so kind as to provide any supporting evidence at all that the current names are common names? I've asked other opposers claiming the same thing too but nobody will, which is jolly frustrating. Rally Wonk (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rally Wonk: Hi. I'm currently on mobile. I will respond to you in detail tomorrow. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose current suggestion based on previous comments and as they most certainly are not common names. Google search: World Rally Championship-2 over 35million hits vs WRC2 Championship less than 1.2million hits; Junior World Rally Championship over 6million hits vs Junior WRC Championship less than 1.8million hits. If the search terms would be put between quotation marks "World Rally Championship-2"=22K, "WRC2 Championship"=3.3K but "WRC2"=1.1mil; "Junior World Rally Championship"=32.5K, "Junior WRC Championship"=9.1K, but "Junior WRC"=190K. In conclusion, the common names would be WRC2, WRC3 and Junior WRC. This is how media and people refer to them and if necessary I can prove it with news articles and even using wrc.com (official website). But i guess Google search gives you the point anyway. -Pelmeen10 (talk) 11:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your first Google search for World Rally Championship-2 returns many results about the popular video games, which this article is most definitely not about.

Whilst I would be OK with WRC2, I think adding Championship is not too precise and remains in deference to common names as described under WP:Precision. It also works as disambiguation from the video games, WRC II Extreme and WRC 2: FIA World Rally Championship. Rally Wonk (talk) 20:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Rally Wonk: Hi. I apologise, I forgot about getting back to this. Pelmeen10 has explained how to look for common names. There is also ngram, but it is not much useful in this case. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Usernamekiran, I'm not fully clear on your comment - what is ngram? What was your point on @Pelmeen10's searches?

Along with your previous post, I'm guessing if you are referring to MOS:ACRO or WP:NCACRO, then it's irrelevant as these names, (WRC2), are not acronyms or abbreviations. Any automatic inference some have that these stand for anything like 'WRC' commonly and officially stands for 'World Rally Championship', is wrong both officially (provable) and commonly (cannot be proven true).

For "World Rally Championship 2" does not exist anywhere but in Wikipedia or where it's been sourced by Wikipedia (ie clones). It's neither the official name nor in common usage as Pelmeen10 has confirmed.

Re: CIA, FBI: looks like there is no such policy, these were decided by editors to be used in full as common. There is NATO and BBC for example. However as said, irrelevant as there is no expansion for WRC2, unless it's to WRC2 Championship ;).

. Rally Wonk (talk) 12:33, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

World Rally Championship-2 → WRC2
World Rally Championship-3 → WRC3
Junior World Rally Championship → Junior WRC

– These current names are not common names, nor are they even the official names which was probably where the conversation was focused at the previous move request. Some sources of common use of proposed names; many being from reputable sources regularly used across rally wikipedia articles:

As previously mentioned, these current names are helping to spread misinformation about false FIA 'world championships'. If there is any common usage of 'World Rally Championship 2/3' from reputable sources I'd sure like to see it. Hopefully this is clearer explained than last time, I do not intend to keep requesting until I get my way. I feel the previous discussion was a mess. Rally Wonk (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 13:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. World Rally Championship-2 doesn't exist outside wikipedia.Rpo.castro (talk) 13:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.