Talk:Wotansvolk

Disambiguation page

As discussed HERE, I think that maybe Wotanism should be a disambiguation page as Wotanism as defined by plagiarist Ron McVan is a completely different concept and belief system from the Wotanism of Guido von List. And, both are different to Odinism] (Wotanism under a different name). FK0071a 09:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There is little material on List's Wotanism that I am aware of, and I am pretty well read on this subject. What primary sources would you be using? At this time, I don't think there is enough material to make a Wotanism entry solely based on List and his contemporaries, and from what I understand, the original conception of the pre-WWII Wotanists was archetypal rather than literally polytheistic. Also, the numbers of people - at least in the English speaking world - who identify as Wotanist are minuscule. I can't even find one well established group or reliable website who uses Wotanism as a self-identifier. The few sparse places it occurs, they are of the David Lane school. Even the Temple of Wotan and Wotansvolk sites are gone. I'm not wholly opposed to it, but we need to have a list of reliable and verifiable sources before we proceed. - WeniWidiWiki 16:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, there is plenty of information from primary sources. I will list them shortly but it helps if you can translate German and also have access/the money to get the original texts. It took me a while but I did. However, I think at least that typing in Wotanism into Wikipedia should bring up a disambiguation page. This could look something like this even if as yet their are no article on each sub section you can at least directly get the information ot state they are not all the same. I think either a disambiguation page or in the opening paragragh of Wotanism it should make the distinction and say they are far from the same because if a disambiguation page is not made then the opening paragraph needs to be changed because "Wotanism is the name of a racial religion promulgated by David Lane." is simply wrong and not encyclopedic.

• Wotanism: McVan
• Wotanism: Odinist/Asatru
• Wotanism: Guido von List

FK0071a 17:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

prison-outreach project of Wotansvolk /Temple of Wotan

I'm almost done with the Persecution of Germanic Pagans article. I still haven't figured out what exactly the situation in the USA is. Gods of Blood has a whole section on the prison-outreach project of David Lane alone, and there are other groups active in this field, too. They seem to be quite successful in suing the federal states in which they are active.

Anyway, I'd like to stop working on that article now, so I just move the last remaining parts over here until they can be incorporated into this article:

In the USA

In Texas the Texas Department of Criminal Justice doesn't allow inmates to study or use the runes in any way. First they were not allowed to receive publications that contain runes, but after the runes were cut out the policy was changed so that inmates may not receive any Asatru publications. The prison authorities claim runes are related to hate groups and used as 'secret codes' for communications between gang members.

According to Mark Pitcavage, prisons differentiate between racist and non-racist Neopagans, saying that the racist women's group Sigrdrifa, which has chapters in the United States and Canada, runs a special "Odinism in Prison" project. Imprisoned right-wing terrorist David Lane, serving a 190-year sentence in federal prison, is one of the principal propagandists for a violently racist version of Wotanism.

Ref

Hope that this is ok. -Zara1709 21:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope. That's not Wotanism. // Liftarn

Let me just give you what Mattias Gardell writes:

Wotansvolk/Temple of Wotan runs a prison-outreach ministry recognized as an official vendor to the Federal Bureau of Prisons and by a majority of state-prison authorities; this ministry will remain a top priority for the new Wotansvolk administration by John Post. There are prison kindreds linked with Wotansvolk in every state, including those dozen states where Wotanism/Asatrú/Odinism has yet [2001] not been granted full religious recognition. Prisoners incarcerated in those states are encouraged by Wotansvolk to challenge state regulations in court. In Ohio, Utah and Wisconsin, legal battles are currently being waged for religious rights and for the full recognition of Asatrú as a legitimate religion. As of 30 January 2001, Wotansvolk catered for more than 5000 prisoners. The states with the strongest presence of Wotansvolk prison kindreds were Arizon, California, Texas, Michigan, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, and Pennsylvania. The Wotansvolk prison-outreach ministry has grown with remarkable speed. ... Correspondence between hundreds of individual prisoners and the Wotansvolk headquarters indicated a pagan revival among the white prison population, including the conversion of whole prison gangs to the ancestral religion. ... Wotansvolk seems more successful in its outreach efforts than other Asatrú/Odinist programs. (Gods of Blood, p.217)

I'd say this would belong in this article. -Zara1709 12:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Partially, but then it would also belong in Asatru and Odinism. // Liftarn

Fact is, that I'm not entirely clear about the relation between Wotanism, Odinism and Asatru. If the apolitical Asatru groups have a prison project (and they are really apolitical) they should not come in conflict with the law, however, only if they are mistaken for one of the political groups. That's would it would belong here. -Zara1709 13:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I just checked the Odinic Rite Homepage. Could we agree to incorporate this stuff into this article and make some notes in the Odinic Rite article? -Zara1709 13:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hardy Lloyd

Is any of this information relevant? I don't think there is any evidence to show that he has anything more than a website, that he has a following or any influence in general.

Hardy Lloyd 2

Hardy Lloyd does have a following in the Prison system in the US and Canada, especially within Pennsylvania. There are also a growing number of youths who have embraced his book, because he speaks plainly to them and doesn't try to shove a lot of Mysticism on them, unlike the "Creed of Iron" book. Also, his book is listed in several local independent libraries within greater Pittsburgh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.117.161 (talk) 17:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

About Hardy Lloyd

Hardy Lloyd was NOT convicted of murder, but won that in a jury trial. The man from Canada, whose IP address is 70.24.116.115, lied when he stated that. He also lied about Mr. Lloyd not having been in the WCOTC. Hardy Lloyd was a close friend of Matt Hales, who ordained him a Minister, was state leader for Pennsylvania first and later Ohio and West Virginia, and was one the "College of Electors"... I must warn the man from Canada that he can be sued for slander by Mr. Lloyd for making the false statement that Hardy was "convicted"!! A copy of the trial record is available for $50 US at the local Pittsburgh county court house!!

"Welwesburg's" edits...

For some reason, "Welwesburg" keeps taking out Mr. Lloyd's info. He is using POV, and is not being emotion free, as per WIKI's rules for edits! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.117.58 (talk) 23:17, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem with this "welwesburg" guy is that he cannot sepperate his emotions from the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.117.103 (talk) 07:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

NPOV, sure. If the guideline really were 'emotion free' (and I'd love to see where that policy or guideline is state) all of Wikipedia would vanish in a puff of smoke. 71.174.70.185 (talk) 17:06, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Why is Mr. Lloyd's item being taken out all the time?

• This man has a following in the prison population (ADL), and his book is in several area libraries and Colleges...! Local used book stores carry it, as well as Eides, a local "Pulp" video and book store, which sells racist and occult and satanic items...! Eides can be looked up online!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.183.185.100 (talk) 18:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to any mention of Mr. Lloyd in the article. He may be very important in relation to Wotanism, then again he may not be. Whether or not he is important, and whether or not be can verify the claims presented in the information must be determined from a reliable source, please see WP:RS for what constitutes a reliable source. Linking to his website is not enough to justify the information. You say that he has a big following and that local used book stores sell his book, then there must be some media report that says something about Hardy and Wotanism. Please read WP:NOR for why we cannot rely on original research to include information in the article. To sum it up - find a reliable source which mention's Mr. Lloyd and the connection to Wotanism and we can put that it. Thanks, TharsHammar ^Bits and^Pieces 23:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Page protected

Page protected due to edit warring. Tan | 39 19:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed a sentence about Wotanism being more mystical than Asataru or Odinism. There was no citation to back up the statement, and the sentence itself is vague and without supporting evidence. It seemed to me like an equivalent of putting 'Christianity is far more spiritual than Islam or Judaism' into the article on Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.160.232.140 (talk) 01:22, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Sigrdrifa

"The feminist women's group 'Sigrdrifa' focuses on White cultural identity and has chapters in the United States and Canada. Sigrdrifa runs a special 'Odinism in Prison' project."

i question the use of the adjective "feminist" here. there is no "Sigrdrifa" page, so no way to read more about this group (not on wiki, at least). what makes this women's group a "feminist" women's group? there are many women's groups that should not be labeled "feminist," and would actually bristle at the insult (Concerned Women for America is likely one of those). Colbey84 (talk) 08:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing

I have half a mind of pruning everything in here that's not verified by reliable sources. There is way too much content here where general statements are sourced to the dude's own website, which by definition isn't much of a reliable source, and is certainly not an objective source for statements about his movement and his fans. Drmies (talk) 03:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Anti-American sentiments

Is this better than the preceding text?

Following a militantly Anti-American platform that ran contrary to most of the U.S. oriented White supremacy movement, Lane furthermore equated loyalty to the United States of America with "race treason", declaring: If you support the aims or the continued existence of the entity known as America, then your treason cannot be calculated in the words of mortals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.46.221 (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

What current text are you suggesting being replaced by the above? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

These edits appear to be padding and WP:OR to make this ideology seem more significant and coherent than is supported by reliable sources. Specifically, this article is about Wotansvolk, and should summarize reliable, independent sources about Wotansvolk. "DavidLane1488.com" and the "Declaration of the Aryan Nations" are absolutely not reliable sources, in case that wasn't obvious. Wikipedia isn't a platform for original research, so conclusion cannot come from editors reading through these garbage sources to come to their own idiosyncratic conclusions about what is important and what isn't. We need reliable sources to do that work for us.

David Lane (white supremacist) already has an article, also, and we don't need redundancy for this. Grayfell (talk) 03:29, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

172.58.46.221 - I do not believe your edits are improving the article. Please get a consensus for them from the editors on this talk page, and stop reverting to your preferred version. Continuing to do tyhis will probably lead to your being blocked for edit warring. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

McVan's opinions about the Aryan Nations Constitution

David Lane was affiliated with Aryan Nations and was an organizer for a Klan group in Colorado be whereas McVan was previously affiliated with the Atheistic Church of the Creator. The page in Gods of the Blood indicates those are his opinions due to an exceptionally wacky and abrasive constitution for an Aryan homeland in which "satanic, heathen" groups are banned. It doesn't speak for Wotansvolk as a group per se. Just McVan's personal dealings with Christian Identity people etc 172.58.43.171 (talk) 06:21, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Except that all of this nonsense is "exceptionally wacky". If you want to rephrase this to attribute this to one person, so be it, but that's not a valid reason to add even more bloat to the article. Picking and choosing the bits that might seem especially odd is a form of editorializing. For one thing, it falsely suggests that anything about this movement is normal or coherent. Grayfell (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

What does "normal" or "coherent" even mean anymore? Aren't those just social constructs?47.137.185.72 (talk) 07:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)