Talk:WrestleMania IV

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WrestleMania IV has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 2, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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Gladys Knight didn't sing "America the Beautiful" The song was sung by Aretha Franklin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.147.1.66 (talk • contribs)

Actually, Aretha sung at WrestleMania III, not IV. TJ Spyke 23:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:WMIVhogan.jpg[edit]

Image:WMIVhogan.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Wmivsavage.jpg[edit]

Image:Wmivsavage.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barber Chair?[edit]

I don't recall Brutus Beefcake ever refering to his sleeperhold as the "barber chair". Smart Mark Greene (talk) 04:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Manager's[edit]

There are several errors done to this page:

First off,during both of Greg Valentine's matches,he had Jimmy Hardy out there as his manager,here is my proof.

TOURNAMENT ROUND #1: Greg "The Hammer" Valentine w/Jimmy Hart beat Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat..

Also Peggy Sue was also Honky Tonk Man's manger,here is proof again:

IC TITLE MATCH: Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake def Honky Tonk Man w/Jimmy Hart & Peggy Sue by DQ..

Also during the Bulldogs&Ware vs The Islanders&Heenan,Matilda was the manger of the Bulldogs&Ware,here is proof:

SIX MAN TAG: The Islanders & Bobby Heenan def eatd The British Bulldogs & Koko B. Ware w/Matilda..

here is the url of my proof:

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/results/wweppv/wrestlemania4.php

please fix this

I don't have time to get into the others, but Matilda will NOT be listed since Matilda was their bulldog mascot and not a human manager. TJ Spyke 15:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This review is transcluded from Talk:WrestleMania IV/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MPJ-DK (talk · contribs) 22:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I will pick up this review starting today, it's sat for entirely too long and suffered from an unfortunate "false start" at GA2. Note: Others are invited to provide opinions and input on the review, but I will not let it derail the process like it already has twice. Disruptive, pointy behavior won't be tolerated. Note: While I work almost exclusively on Pro wrestling articles I think I have a pretty good record of quality work and believe I an unbiased and impartial, I see plenty of project music or project Military History reviewing within their own scope without any problems, I do not generally work on WWE articles so there should be no conflict of interest.

When I do GA reviews I usually take a couple of days to provide comments and feedback as I work through each GA Criteria, anyone is welcome to jump in and fix anything I call out while I do my review, you do not have to wait until the end. I may fix minor issues myself while I am doing the review if they are trivial (take more time to type it out than to fix it). The nominator is allowed to disagree with my comments or suggestions, that is all part of the process. if I feel like an issue raised is a blocker for reaching GA I'll be more than happy to work with you to find a solution that you are happy with and still hits GA quality. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review notes[edit]

Overall

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

GA Toolbox checks

External link checker

The Dirty Deeds link is dead (reference 24)
Rest checks out

DAB Tool

No issues detected

Copy Violation tool has 10 hits with more than 5% match

94.7% prowrestling wikia - Wiki mirror, copied FROM Wikipedia, not TO it
42.5% Wrestling DVD Network - One entry seems to be potentially iffy, but looks to have been rewritten enough from the original to not be an issue
41.9% 411 Mania - Hits on 4 word phrases such as "“Million Dollar Man” Ted Dibiase" etc. which is not a copyvio
39.8% Retro Pro Wrestling - As above, indicates on phrases such as "The Honky Tonk Man, and", not a violation. Also a limited quote which again is within guidelines
27.0% ProWrestling.net - "Randy Savage defeated Ted DiBiase to win" like snippets
21.0% TJR Wrestling - Phrases like "Tito Santana and Rick Martel" and battle royal participants
13.0% WWE - snippets like "a large sum of money"
8.3% Canoe - A quote
7.4% WCW Rules 4 Lyfe - snippets like “Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous”
6.5% WCW Rules 4 Lyfe - snippets like "with an inverted atomic drop."
Conclusion - No issues detected

Running notes

Venue - It was never promoted as the "Historic Atlantic City Convention Hall",but the "Trump Plaza" which is how it was presented. The article needs to balance FACT and Kayfabe. The "Fact" is that it was the "Historic Atlantic City Convention Hall", the Kayfabe is that they called it "Trump Plaza". I think the info box use of a note is an appropriate balance for that entry. I do feel like the article is missing a "Background" section, which would be a great place to explain the location discrepancy in prose.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Style guide - I am not seeing a "Background" section, which I think for a WM is relevant and necessary to comply with our MOS.

I have added a small background section Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:17, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Manual of Style

Alright let's address the biggest underlying problem I am seeing in the article, something that most professional wrestling articles struggle with and many get wrong: Kayfabe. The "Storyline", "Event" and "Aftermath" is written almost 100% "in universe", keeping Kayfabe and making it look like it's all a competitive sport and not a form of scripted entertainment. Looking at the article the small background section (recently added) and the reception is the only thing that's not in Kayfabe. To compare it to other entertainment media it would be like a movie article being 85% plot summary, and no true Good Article for a movie is 85% plot. This is a fundamental flaw in the article. I am not going to quick fail it for this, because then nothing gets improved, but there will need to be some rewriting done to address this.
I am not going to do a lot of prose review of those three sections right now, they need work and I’d rather review the rewritten sections.

I wouldn't have blamed you if you had quick failed, I can see it's a mess. I'll get to work. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but quick fail doesn't lead to article improvements, so I'd only ever quick fail something beyond hope. So a couple of options - I can put the review on hold if you think the rewrite can happen in the next week or two, or if you need longer I can fail it, let you work on it and provide feedback when you want so that you are not under any time pressure, the choice is yours Lee Vilenski MPJ-DK (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, I completely agree. Leave it on hold. I've already started going through it, it'll take me a couple days. Thanks for understanding. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:17, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then I will review the other aspects (images, stability etc.) and hold off on prose/MOS review until you're done with the rewrite. And you are welcome, the GA process works best when it's a collaboration. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:23, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I feel pretty bad about it. I think I nominated this when I was much less familiar with the GA process (although most of my work is on Snooker/cue sport articles), so looking at it now, it's pretty horrendous. I'll get something worth reviewing to you as soon as I can. Thanks for your time again. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've done some work on the article (not the aftermath section yet, sorry). Specifically, I've tried to limit a lot of the wordage and over explination of matches. I've also attempted to write "on-screen", or similar when referring to wrestler's relationships. Hopefully this is better (it was a mess, you are right). I'll next attempt to shorten the reception section (I think I tried to write this similar to a reception section for a video game, however it looks like this was completely the wrong way to go), and copyedit the aftermath section in its entirety. Thanks for being patient. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:30, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I've done a full re-write. I still need to do a copyedit, but I think I've removed most of the kayfabe (or at least clarified it). This is hopefully a lot better. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:41, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Non-Opinion sources

Item 2 - Sources (outside of the reception section, citation 1-21 and 31-39) - The standard for these sources are higher than the “opinion” sources used in the "reception" section so I will deal with them differently. I will be looking at both the project RS list as well as the definitions under WP:RS to make sure it’s all at GA quality. Right off the bat I see quite a few primary (WWE) sources, 13 out of 39 – ‘’’one-third of all sources’’’ – Personally that’s too high a percentage to rely on a primary source for a Good Article, my personal aim is to only use primary sources when no other sources are available. This information should be out there if you just look for it.

Please elaborate on why it is thought that the following are reliable sources and thus okay for use in a Good Article. Since these are not used to support opinions there is a higher demand on source quality.

ThoughtCo

So, this was the best source of information I could find that specifically mentioned a list of attendance in one reference (I suppose I could simply link to WWE's profile on the event, but that's a primary source. The source has editorial roll, so I was pretty confident about it's reliability. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TWM Wrestling

Is this unreliable? I couldn't find anything at WP:PW/RS Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Power Driver review
Online World of Wrestling

No idea. I've changed this to the WWE's own information [1], although it could also be sourced to cagematch for results (I tend to try and stay away from cagematch for this, to avoid repetition.) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Last word on Pro Wrestling

I thought I had only used this for it's opinion. Is this not considered to be RS? I'll remove it from the citations of the event if not. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bleacher report

Replaced with a cbs article on the megapowers before WMIV Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PWWEW

Removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Hur – This is a self-published book through lulu.com

Looking into it a bit more, he actually seems like an acomplished author. However, without an editorial role, it's pointless. I'll remove. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:41, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Camel Clutch Blog

Looks like it has a decent history and an editorial role. [2]. I'll remove if unrelaible, but I think that would need discussion. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:44, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It really does look like I didn't do a source review at all for this when I nominated. I apologise, I'd normally be more pro-active. Bare with me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Bret Hart book source citation is not complete, that’s only half of how the Harvard style is supposed to work. I can help you fix this if you are unsure of how and also transform the Ted Dbiase book citations to be consistent if you would like?

I've just turned it into cite book, which I have more knowledge of Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:54, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One source lists “World Wrestling Entertainment” and others “WWE” as the publisher, please be consistent.
The prowrestlinghistory source in the table is at the wrong level. it does not source all results in the table, just the tournament, so i should only be applied to those matches, no in general.

ref 39 is now only on the bracket. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Opinion sources

Item 3 - Reception section & sources – citations currently numbered 22 through 30
The concern raised by someone is that some of these may not be suitable for a GA, I’ll try and get a feel for each “Opinion source” and the sites that publish them. For GA we don’t want every Tom, Dick and Mark who commented on this to be in the article.

Broad in coverage

Nothing in PPV rates? Commercial tape releases, DVDs, WWE network availability etc.? I think it'd help give full picture of these facts are included in the article.

More to come

Comments

Hi MPJ! Thanks for doing the review. I'll get to these points as soon as I'm back at a computer. I appreciate your time. :) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As for the lack of a background section, I was following the same lines as that of my only other GA from PW, WrestleMania II. This didn't have a background section. However, I'm sure I can easily write one up. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- MPJ-DK I've done a bit of work on the article. Hopefully it's closer to what is needed for the GA. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:36, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lee Vilenski sorry I must have missed that you said it was reworked. I will pick up the review again. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MPJ-DK, reminder :) --MrClog (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

MrClog I hate to do this, but I have found myself less and less able to focus on detailed Wikipedia work and only really read or do minor gnoming tasks. There is no way I can do the review justice and will unfortunately have to withdraw from this. MPJ-DK (talk) 17:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Thanks for letting me know. I'll open it for another reviewer. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:41, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:WrestleMania IV/GA4. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk · contribs) 16:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to take this on to try and get myself back into GA reviewing despite pretty much being done here. Besides, articles waiting over a year for a review is just flat out unacceptable. It's going to take a couple weeks since wrestling articles especially have to take care with sources and prose separating facts with kayfabe and storylines. Wizardman 16:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok right off the bat I have a concern on one source, the Powerdriver Review one just seems to be a guy with a wordpress blog sharing his opinion. It's a pretty heavily-used source at that, I'd get rid of that and replace that. I'm also not sold on that attendance source even though apparently is about.com, but if you can't find a better one I won't worry about it because that's a pretty minor thing. Wizardman 16:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure Wizardman, thanks for taking this one on. I'll remove the cite, I think it shouldn't be too difficult, but might take a little time to sort out the replacement. The second one isn't that much of an issue, the information doesn't need to be cited in the infobox (per WP:INFOBOXCITE), and can be cited in text from Metzler and the broadcast itself. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:29, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more things on the source/image review end. I'm not sold on File:WMIVhogan.jpg as a fair use image, doesn't really say anything that the prose doesn't already (i'm fine with the promo poster, but more than one in an article would need a strong rationale). There's also a second powerdriver source to replace (only one use so that should be easier), and ref 42 is a permanent dead link of a source that I wasn't sure of its reliability anyway. There's a couple other sources I'm borderline on, but I'll research them over the next day or two to see if they are acceptable. Wizardman 02:30, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on the image. I assumed it was a fan shot, not fair use. Removed. Powerdriver changed to offline source. Removed deadlink - information being cited wasn't a difficult one (simply next years results). Thanks for your quick response. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:26, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The sources seem ok now, I removed one more that seemed like an "anyone can publish something" site. There's a couple more things to clean up on that front though: the major news sites that have authors (espn, the independent, etc.) should have the author noted in the refs. Also some spots where the same site is cited are different; Wrestlemania V says Pro Wrestling History while WWF World Title 1988 says Wrestling Supercards and Tournaments. Same with ESPN.com/ESPN and canoe.com/slam.canoe.com, double check the formatting and make sure the sources read alike. One that's situated I'll start on the prose. Wizardman 02:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, I have added authors. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:31, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, time for the prose part of the review:

"who had faced off in the previous edition's main event" id wikilink mania 3 in the previous edition part. this is linked in the next paragraph though so this isn't mandatory.