Talk:Yemenite Children Affair

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Impartial[edit]

This article has many issues including an impartial and unbalanced presentation of the sides in this issue and lacks coherence and a proper structure. It lacks neutrality, references, inline citations. Therefore I added an box on top requesting cleanup and removed some lines that lacked citations. I will be trying to fix the article in the coming days. --Hakhamim (talk) 12:59, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Substantial edits in 2018 have addressed this. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a recent article where Tzachi Hanegbi of the Likud party admitted the government's role in the "deliberate operation of stealing hundreds of children": http://english.aawsat.com/2016/08/article55355492/israel-finally-admits-kidnapping-yemeni-jewish-children-selling. This should be included at some point. -- Non-User, 11:56am(GMT), 04/08/16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.206.152.3 (talk)

Added. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 17:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the footsteps of the adoptees[edit]

Found a very detail article (In English) about the subject. Adding here a link. If someone willing to add this contest to the page I really appreciate it. Sokuya (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article is sourced to an independent blog, it is written by Shlomi Hatuka, an activist who is employed by "AMRAM" an organization that claims that the yemenite community was the victim of genocide and nazi like experiments by the Israeli government. The article itself is NOT an academic source and contains MANY false claims which were disproven both by the national committees as well as through common sense (Ms. Zila Levine for instance was adopted in Sept 1948, the woman whom Hatuka claims is her mother only reported that her daughter went missing in January 1950.) According to all the comittees and all serious academic research (Dr. Dov Levitan is the chief researcher on this topic) years of search did not yield one single case of a person that was found alive despite his family being informed he was dead back in the 50s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.25.94.130 (talk) 12:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

400,000 declassified documents[edit]

The article is out of date and needs to be updated in light of a new open database released by the Israel with 400,000 declassified documents.

--CyberXRef☎ 23:00, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

you trust israeli sources 2A04:4A43:4C0F:E119:0:0:9E2:4FD1 (talk) 14:16, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article clean up / update[edit]

I have begun to update the article by checking sources with their corresponding edits, and by providing new cited information where necessary. Additionally, links to other Wiki pages have been added. Outlined below are some of the more significant changes that may merit discussion.

The intro was updated to include the number of missing children, along with the removal of WP:OR elements that were not supported. Chief among them, ‘possible disappearance’, has been edited to ‘disappearance’. The sources support the latter. The largely unresolved mystery here is not whether these children were reported missing or disappeared, but rather what actually happened to them.

By the same token, I have shortened the section heading, ‘Allegations of disappearances’ to just, ‘Disappearances’. Again, the disappearances are not disputed. Allegations in the article refer to what became of these children and what level of government, if any, was involved. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 19:18, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The disappearances are disputed, the children died, were buried and their death certificates were issued. The children disappeared only in the sense that the parents did not get to examine the bodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.25.94.130 (talk) 11:23, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you can provide reliable sources that show there is a dispute, you are welcome to add it to the article. For more information, see the response already given here. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 15:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the public admission of Cabinet Minister Tzachi Hanegbi in 2016, the section Public admission has been added to the article. Consequently, the conspiracy theory category has been removed. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hanegbi noted "hundreds" of cases. A news report about his words also names (baseless) speculations with the magic number of 5,000 (I hope to provide better sources to show exactly how baseless that number is). BTW: Hanegbi's mother is Geulah Cohen, whose father immigrated to Palestine from Yemen in 1908. Nurit Koren is from a Yemenite family who I believe immigrated to Palestine roughly at the same period, though were not as prominent. Tzafrir (talk) 12:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Made up information in the article[edit]

1. The Israeli government did not in fact publish its findings in 2017, it established another Government Sanctioned Investigation Committee led by MK Nurit Koren (Likud), this new committee has the mandate to open up all existing archives, excavate graves and perform genetic tests. The committee is still active to this day (August 2018) - so far no official findings were published. 2. The article claims that the government "found the practice of some doctors to be criminally negligent" - first, as no findings were actually published in 2017 this claim is dubious, becomes even more dubious once you notice that the quoted article refers not at all to the transfusion of blood but rather to the failed attempted treatment of advanced malnutrition through the introduction of intravenous sustenance (A practice which today is known to be lethal to the patient, regretfully back in 1951 there was no known treatment for advanced malnutrition). In addition, the article claims that "Such practices brought about the untimely death of some children, who were previously robust and healthy" - which is perhaps written in the (unscientific) article in Yisrael Hayom however it is not at all what's written in Dr. Mendel's medical report that is quoted in the article, it is never said that the children are healthy, the quote from the letter "The patho-physiological conditions of the children were more or less stable before treatment was given, but rapid deterioration occurred soon after" - given that Dr. Mendel is discussing 4 infants suffering from malnutrition it takes a rather disingenuous reading (such as that provided in Yisrael Hayom) to understand that he performed malicious medical experiments in "healthy and robust" children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.25.94.130 (talk) 11:22, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are reliable sources throughout the article that support the information given. It is not for Wikipedia editors to personally decide what is true or not, but merely to report. See the following policies: WP:NPOV, WP:RS,and WP:VERIFY. If you would like to edit the article by adding other points of views that are supported by reliable sources, you are free to do so. Remember to include your citations or your edits may be deleted. Personal points of view have no place on Wikipedia. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I reviwed citations 18 and 19, the articles from Haaretz and Yisrael Hayom, at now point do they make the claim that the 'government published its findings' at 2017. making the framing of the entire paragraph fictitious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.111.61.46 (talk) 06:34, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Content that was not found in the sources has been removed. Additionally, the Inquiry committee section has been expanded including citations from sources in English. Veritycheck✔️ (talk) 16:40, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image[edit]

I delete the image showing "Jewish Agency representatives meeting Yemenite immigrants, upon arrival at Lod airport 1949" ; this is mere propaganda. Actually, as other Mizrahim, Yemenite Jews were sprayed with DDT "upon arrival at Israeli airport" : https://www.haaretz.com/1.5117767.

I delete also "many arrived as penniless refugees" ; they arrived as refugees because of political reasons ; maybe they would have prefered to stay in their counrty. At least they would not have lost their child !--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:7016:BC92:5D2A:E791 (talk) 18:27, 26 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't think it being propaganda really matters. –apap04 talk | contributions 15:50, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
About propaganda, it is fordidden on WP, see Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing.
FewYemenite Jews were welcomed by Jewish Agency reprensetatives, all of them were sprayed with pesticide upon their arrival : "The Moroccan and other Mizrahi Jews faced humiliation at the hands of the Israeli immigration authorities who shaved their heads and sprayed their bodies with DDT pesticide.", https://himalmag.com/from-the-margins-review-jews-judaising-movements-and-the-traditions-of-israelite-descent-in-south-asia-ambreen-agha/ and above Haaretz. I gave 2 references, I can bring more if necessary--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:E41B:FF40:D991:444C (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
add the caption and the references with it –apap04 talk | contributions 18:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
DDT was in common use at the time for disinfection. As for the source - it seems to be a book review, and regardless it says nothing of Yemenite Jews and DDT - so use of it here is SYNTH/OR.Icewhiz (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
1.A book review is an allowable source on WP, especially if the author of the book is a scholar. Anyway I gave another reference.
2.The quotation you have deleted mentions "DDT" !
3.The source deals with Mizrahi Jews ; Yemenite Jews ARE Mizrahi Jews.
4. You have reinserted an image which is nothing but puffery.--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:6851:B58D:ABB4:28D9 (talk) 21:22, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What does mean "check revision... for reason" ?[edit]

@Apap04: : I don't understand.

The caption (you deleted) was : "Yemenite Jews in Rosh Ha'Ayin Ma'abara". The image you published has no reference, nore "mine"--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:6851:B58D:ABB4:28D9 (talk) 22:55, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

im talking about this. –apap04 talk | contributions 23:03, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Apap04: :What does "this" have to do with the picture ? Am i authorized to reinsert the image of maabara, or can you reinsert it please ? It is your 3rd revert and there is no avaiblable reason, or no reason I can understand.--2A01:CB00:980:7A00:6851:B58D:ABB4:28D9 (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted it because User:Icewhiz already stated a reason why to reverting the edit. "SYNTH/OR , source does not mention Yemenites". I even attached the screenshot above your reply.. –apap04 talk | contributions 23:12, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As it is written above, I CHANGED THE SOURCE, and brought a new one, where Yemenite Jews are explicitly mentioned. See the footnote 14, the source is Libération --2A01:CB00:980:7A00:6851:B58D:ABB4:28D9 (talk) 23:19, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While it seems that this time the cites source at least mentions Yemenites - this is WP:UNDUE and unrelated to the children affair.Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 30 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Negro Blood"[edit]

The paragraph about "negro blood" is misleading: Dr. George Mendel was the head doctor in a hospital in one of the camps. "The methods used by the doctors hastened the deaths of some children." refers to one case where four malnourished children were incorrectly fed too much. The "Negro blood" issue (often presented as "experiment", sometimes hinting torture, is basically a series of blood tests. Children sick with Malaria were in the hospital. The standard care required getting blood tests from them anyway. So the doctor decided to check a theory that was speculated at the time that Yemenites also have Sickle cell disease. This is more common in sub-Saharan Africa, but can also be found in some Arabs and Indians. It seems (or seemed at the time) to be linked to improved resistance to Malaria. He actually failed to find evidence in his tests. Tzafrir (talk) 18:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction?[edit]

In the section about the Kedmi Commission its stated 5 missing babies were found, then later in the article stated that there's no documented case of a child being abducted. Is this not a contradiction? El Juan Moreno (talk) 19:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also in the The Bahlul-Minkowski Committee section its stated 2 children were adopted. Seems like blatant falsehood to state no children were taken. El Juan Moreno (talk) 19:47, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading[edit]

This article seems to ignore or disregard evidence suggesting children were indeed taken. It implies that the accusations are false when in fact the truth is unknown. This BBC article implies quite the opposite:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40342143.amp 2A00:23C4:2DA6:2901:D33:A9A6:3E24:DB4C (talk) 00:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I came to the discussion page to point out this very same thing. Specifically this line (hereafter referred to as The Claim) seems to imply that the accusations of children being taken from their parents were erroneous:
"There is no known case of any abducted Yemenite child: a child that was reported as dead to their family and years later turned up to be adopted by another family."
However, Reference 3 cited in the article itself strongly suggests this statement is false, along with this NY Times article:
https://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/02/world/the-babies-from-yemen-an-enduring-mystery.html
Reference 3 discusses multiple instances of people who have found their biological parents after being raised by adoptive parents. In the first example, although Gil Grunbaum is Tunisian and not specifically Yemenite, it is explicitly stated in the article that his parents were told he was dead:
"His biological parents – recent immigrants to Israel from Tunisia – were told their child had died during delivery. They were sent home without a death certificate and denied the chance to see their baby’s body or a grave..."
This directly contradicts The Claim aside from the difference in country of origin.
The New York Times article provides another example of a Yemenite woman who found her mother with a 99.99% certainty DNA match. While it doesn't state that the mother was told her child was dead, and therefore does not contradict The Claim, it should be mentioned to provide needed context to The Claim. The article also does not give the mother's account of the events, so it is unclear what originally happened to separate them.
The BBC article isn't quite as strong as the two examples I listed above, in my opinion, but still provides further important evidence that paints the opposite picture of the one painted by The Claim. The first example is of a mother who found inconsistencies in the death certificates and other documentation provided for one of her daughters, and the second shows a case similar to the NY Times example where a Yemenite Jewish man located his biological family after finding out he was adopted, though his mother's account was not given as she had passed away 17 years before he was able to locate her.
To summarize the above, we have 1) a number of examples of Yemenite parents saying their children were taken from them without their consent, and later getting incomplete or inaccurate information about their child's death, 2) a number of examples of adopted children finding Yemenite biological families once they reached adulthood, and 3) a specific example of a Tunisian Jewish man whose parents were told their child had died and who later found them after discovering that he was adopted. I would argue that this Wikipedia article in its current state does not properly reflect this body of evidence.
It's worth noting that the Public Admission section does briefly address the issue I raise above with Cabinet Minister Tzachi Hanegbi's statement. However, the section was so brief that, on my first read, I originally got the impression that no cases of children being taken and adopted by other parents had actually surfaced. I would recommend both 1) either removing The Claim entirely or adding additional context to it to make the truth more apparent to the reader, and 2) adding information about the various cases that have come up of people finding their long-lost biological parents/children/relatives. This second part is especially important, as the absence of these details was the reason for my original inaccurate interpretation of the events. 128.84.247.30 (talk) 22:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yemenite_Children_Affair&oldid=1218857182"