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Talk:Zhang Hao (singer)

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Requested move 15 October 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - No clear consensus that the singer is the primary topic. No new !votes in a week so no need to relist. No objection to opening a further discussion with more evidence. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Singer is clear primary topic, meeting the criteria for WP:PT1:
A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
According to the pageview analysis, Zhang Hao (singer) receives about 1700% more pageviews than all other Zhang Hao articles combined,

– Clickstream data shows that the vast majority of visitors to the disambiguation page click directly through to (Singer), and per Wikipedia:DETERMINEPRIMARY:
A rule of thumb is that it's likely there is a primary topic by usage if the top WikiNav graph shows a single significant usage that maps to almost all of the incoming traffic and overwhelms all other usages.
(Singer) doesn't just overwhelm all other usages on WikiNav, it is the only usage that WikiNav has any data on because none of the other usages receive enough traffic for WikiNav to even construct a report on their traffic patterns: [1] RachelTensions (talk) 06:57, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! That is one handsome singer.
Sorry. Got sidetracked here from Disambiguation of links. So you probably know where this is going.
- I want you all to take a second and look at WP:NCBIO.
- Then click on the Zhang Hao disambiguation Link that is at the top of the article and count the amount of people with the same name as Zhang Hao (Singer).
- Both the singers first and last names are very common and the English wiki has only a fraction of potential Chinese biographical articles. Both names have millions of people and most likely 100k plus people with the exact same name as Zhang Hao.
Hao (surname)
Zhang (surname)
Anecdotally, over the last 3 days I have had at least 2 situations of people with the exact same name, nationality, and profession with the only way to differentiate them being their birth year.
I'm giving the strongest oppose for what should be considered pretty good reasons.
RCSCott91 (talk) 04:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because someone's given name and surname are common doesn't mean they're not the primary topic; English Wikipedia only has 6 articles and as stated, Zhang Hao (singer) receives 1700% pageviews more than everybody else combined.
What is the benefit of sending people to a disambiguation page first if the data reinforces that the vast majority of visitors to Zhang Hao just click directly through to Zhang Hao (singer)? Would any of the "100k plus people" with the same name that don't have a Wikipedia article be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC if they had an article on English Wikipedia? I find it to be unlikely, or else they'd have an article in the first place. RachelTensions (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking as someone who enjoys fixing Disambiguation links.
Whatever the outcome of this consensus, without that disambiguation page, when people make a link, a certain portion do not pay attention to whom they link. You will end up with Zhang Hao becoming the credit to many things he did not do. Whether good or scandalous.
Eventually, it will become enough of an annoyance that if it isn't accidentally fixed by someone like me who enjoys "mopping up the small spills" (because although movers are supposed to work with consensus they also get to use the overriding WP to maintain Wikipedia).
I am telling you as someone who is painfully aware, you want that differentiate on the article. Especially now that there has been more push to translate into English wiki.
You may think you are doing a service but you aren't, the number of page views really doesn't matter. This is one of those things that is really hard to explain the significance of until you spend hours trying to verify if a linked person is actually one of the people we have in our list of Disambiguation names or if we don't yet have a biographical article for that person.
Mover is a separate tool for that reason, you can make the cleanup easier or make it so much harder. RCSCott91 (talk) 05:07, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think your arguments are rooted in any policy or guidelines; the end goal of the encyclopedia isn't to make things easier for people who fix links, it's to make our articles the most intuitive they can be for the readers - hiding Zhang Hao (singer) behind a disambiguation page that the data shows everyone is going to click through anyway doesn't accomplish that. RachelTensions (talk) 05:14, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RachelTensions I feel like you didn't read the policy that you shared. And I quote from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC,
"The primary topic might be a broad-concept article, as mentioned above.
While Wikipedia has no single criterion for defining a primary topic, two major aspects that editors commonly consider are these:
It's funny because Google's AI when I went to look up Zhang Hao length of career listed off, in that order.
  • Figure skater Zhang Hao's skating career lasted 30 years, ending in 2021 when he retired at the age of 37. He competed in five Winter Olympic Games and was a four-time World medalist.  
  • Footballer Zhang Hao's professional football career began in 2013 when he joined Shanghai Shenxin. He played for Heilongjiang FC and Kunshan before winning promotion to the top tier with Kunshan in 2022.
  • Zhang Hao is currently active as a singer in the group ZEROBASEONE. In 2024, he was announced as a spokesperson for Tangle Teezer and a Youth Ambassador for Mistine.  
So one is a gorgeous pop idol, another has had a 30 year skating career as an Olympian, and still another has played association football for a decade. And that is just 3 of the living ones that we have currently in the English Wikipedia. Oh and Zhang Hao (singer) started his career in 2023. He doesn't meet the definition of primary topic. And he wouldn't meet the exception as a broad topic.
So now that you know that I read the policy you shared. How about returning the favor and reading WP:NCBIO. Maybe with some special emphasis on the disambiguation portion WP:NCPDAB.
RCSCott91 (talk) 06:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you weren't so concerned with crafting a sarcastic and facetious reply you'd see that criteria #1 for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is:
A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
The fact that (Singer) receives:
  • 3200% more average pageviews than (Figure skater),
  • 26000% more average pageviews than (Footballer),
  • and 1700% more average pageviews than every Zhang Hao article combined,
  • is shown to be the only article that visitors are clicking on from the disambiguation page
...shows that (Singer) is clearly and unequivocally the primary topic per primary topic criteria at WP:PT1.
It would be absurd to force users to click through a disambiguation page that the data shows receives little to no use when the pageview and clickstream data shows that almost everybody who searches for "Zhang Hao" on Wikipedia or ends up at the "Zhang Hao" disambiguation page is looking for Zhang Hao (singer). RachelTensions (talk) 06:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY also states:
While long-term significance is a factor, historical age is not determinative.
and
A rule of thumb is that it's likely there is a primary topic by usage if the top WikiNav graph shows a single significant usage that maps to almost all of the incoming traffic and overwhelms all other usages.
(Singer) doesn't just overwhelm all other usages on WikiNav, it is the only usage that WikiNav has any data on because none of the other usages receive enough traffic for WikiNav to even report their data: [2] RachelTensions (talk) 06:46, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sarcastic and facetious are synonyms of each other. You don't need to use both as if I was somehow bringing completely different content to my statements. More importantly, I wasn't being sarcastic. He is a gorgeous pop star, for his entire year. Reminds me of my pop idol crush on G-Dragon.
You are using percentages for a pop idol who is currently in the first year of his career for a site that literally gets top search on Google and is seen by most people as a relatively good authority to find information. Your numbers are screwed by design. Did you actually read the example they gave for a primary topic? They used the company APPLE. One of the most valuable companies in the world whose branding is known worldwide and product is in every country (somehow even ones that are under sanctions).
So ideally, you don't land on a Disambiguation page because people like me fix the link issue that someone did, hopefully pretty quickly. (Quick enough, that I saw the disambiguation Link that is attached to the top of the this article which got me curious as to what proposed move was being considered) I reckon that link has been up for 1 day and it is only one link. If you have 3 or more it gets seen within an hour by someone.
What will happen if you move this page to occupy the disambiguation Zhang Hao page is when someone creates a link and doesn't differentiate it, it will lead to Zhang Hao (singer). This is a much more difficult task to fix unlike regular disambiguation pages because there is no alert to tell us that something need to be fixed. RCSCott91 (talk) 06:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So once again you're looping your rationale for leaving the disambiguation page in place back to perceived technical reasons which really doesn't cut mustard. RachelTensions (talk) 06:57, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are literally trying to make the argument for moving this article to occupy the disambiguation page based on a technical reason. So if we are gonna use idioms, the pot is calling the kettle black.
Let's play devil's advocate for a second, because you've already shown in your rebuttal to @The Blue Rider that you know how search engines work. Google works with an integrated AI but Wikipedia also has a pretty useful search.
Which leads me to believe that your argument of wanting to move Zhang Hao (singer) to occupy the disambiguation page isn't to help any lost readers because those readers are coming from Google and other outside search engines, the disambiguation page is a moot point for them. So who is this for?
So why are you being motivated to push this? Do you idolize Zhang Hao (singer) and it frustrates you that he has any differentiation on his name? Or is there some alternate motivation that I couldn't understand?
Because this is a lot of effort for something with which your response to my attempt to explain the damage it would do was disregard instead of attempting to actually understand what I was explaining.
And yes, I know I'm attacking your motivations because they seem either misguided or with disregard to possible repercussions (the unwanted links that would lead to Zhang Hao (singer) that would be very difficult to locate and fix). RCSCott91 (talk) 07:24, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we're done here. Your weird assumptions over my motivations for proposing this move, along with continuous condescending attitude and sarcastic statements are unhelpful.
What you're suggesting about "damage" being caused by moving a primary topic to the root instead of having a disambiguation page aren't supported by any Wikipedia policy or guidelines, they're just your opinions as somebody who maintains disambiguation links.
Have a good day. RachelTensions (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've already shared the policy links and attempted to explain what will likely happen over time. Your disregard to read what I offered when I was willing to read yours and respond, that 1 year as a pop idol does not mean they are the primary focus, speaks volumes. If I had made this same argument in 2018 it would look on average very similar. People's popularity goes up and down but moving them back and forth to occupy the disambiguation page of a common name shouldn't be normalized activity. The Ice skater has had better months than the singer has ever had but I'm not here to make the argument that Zhang Hao (ice skater) should be moved to the disambiguation page even though accumulatively, that article has had better clicks.
2018 Zhang Hao the ice skater argument
Differentiating is not a sign of disrespect:
Zhang Hao is differentiated both in the Korean (his work country) and Chinese (his home country) language Wikipedia. And no one is confused or frustrated by it.
Zhang Hao (Chinese male singer, member of Korean Boy group ZEROBASEONE)
Zhang Hao (singer) Chinese singer and dancer
RCSCott91 (talk) 08:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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