Template:Did you know nominations/Alfredo Zalce

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by —Bruce1ee^talk 10:00, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Alfredo Zalce

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~~... that Mexican artist Alfredo Zalce had such an aversion to self promotion and public honors that he had to be tricked into attending Morelia, Michoacán's renaming a museum to honor him?~~

Created/expanded by Thelmadatter (talk). Nominated by Maile66 (talk) at 22:28, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, substantial, well sourced, Spanish source accepted AGF. The prose: sometimes a bit longish: "Zalce is not as well known as other Mexican muralists because he avoided promotion, unlike most other artists." A sentence like "Exhibitions of his work have been held in many countries of the world." tells me about nothing. To the hook. The genitive construction of the town/museum/state seems strange to me, and I would not know where to place the "'s' ;) therefore ALT1. I could imagine something easy about his art, ALT2. The latter would need an inline citation. I would love to see a pic but don't know enough about licensing.

ALT1: ~~... that Mexican artist Alfredo Zalce had such an aversion to public honors that when the museum of Morelia, Michoacán, took his name he had to be tricked into attending the opening?~~

ALT2: ~~... that many murals of Mexican artist Alfredo Zalce contain morals?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with either hook. I've put a notice on the author's talk page, so she can address the prose. I, too, would love to see the image in the DYK. Like you, I'm not that knowledgeable about copyright issues. However, based on the Achelous and Hercules DYK talk about copyrights, this might not be viable. Perhaps author Thelmadatter could check out the copyright for us on the lead image used in the article. Maile66 (talk) 13:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, no rush, will ask the pic question on the general talk, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Somebody over at Commons nominated it for deletion within the last few minutes: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Fragmento Mural Alfredo Zalce 6 063.jpg Maile66 (talk) 23:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

ALT1 then (ALT2 lacks an inline citation after the fact), no pic, please improve the prose until it appears ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The article has a significant number of phrases found by the duplication detector as being identical to those from this source; the longest include "when the government of michoacan changed the name of its museum of contemporary art to", "he had to be tricked into attending the inauguration ceremony", and the list of media he works in. There are also changes of a word: "shows lawyers hiding their faces as they [uncaringly] step over the body of a losing client" merely omits the word "uncaringly" from the source. There are well over a dozen from this one source; I have not checked others. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

My slip up, to some degree. When I nominated this, I thought all the references were in Spanish, which is why I didn't check them first. Apparently, as you noticed, one is in English. I've put a second notification on the author's page. Not being familiar with the genre, even in English, I'm a little uncomfortable trying to rework this myself. I don't know who wants to wait on the author, because I've seen no response to my talk page message a week ago. The author continues to be active, just not here. Maile66 (talk) 00:51, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a notice on the author's page that many serious close paraphrasing segments have been found in the article that need to be addressed immediately might get said author's attention. In addition, should some template be put on the article itself, or something inserted on the article's talk page? BlueMoonset (talk) 01:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ive stopped nominating my articles for DYK because the process has become to convuluted and too many people complaining about little stuff. You can drop the nomination if you wish.Thelmadatter (talk) 02:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm very concerned that you do not seem to view the copyright violations in your article as serious. They're not "little stuff" at all, but a very serious matter on Wikipedia. I checked with a more experienced editor, and she has removed the improperly used material from the article, along with sentences that were problematic as close paraphrasing.

Under the circumstances, I think it's best to end the review at this point. The hooks were all dependent on prose that has been deleted due to the above concerns, and we have no way to check the sources in Spanish against the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

reviewer back to this, sorry that my understanding of "close" is still not developed enough. I am quite determined though to save this important artist who shoulb be known, please hold. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

ALT3: ... that Mexican artist Alfredo Zalce, in 1933 a founder of a revolutionary artists' league, showed in his art gestures of the oppressed and the powerful? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Gerda, I agree that Zalce deserves to be known, but this remains a highly problematic article. Under the circumstances, the article needs to be rigorously checked for close paraphrasing from the Spanish to the English, and unless we can find someone to do that—interlanguage close paraphrasing and, yes, copyvio, is a legitimate problem—we cannot simply assume that there is none: we found major violations in material from the English source. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:04, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you know someone who could do that? I don't, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:06, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't either, but that's what we need. WT:DYK might be a resource. BlueMoonset (talk) 11:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I asked there already but will do it more prominently, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

ALT4: ... that Mexican muralist, sculptor, and engraver Alfredo Zalce is acclaimed as the first modern artist to use coloured cement as his medium?

Have reworked; while certainly lots of facts are lifted from the articles in Spanish, the structure, wording, and emphases are quite different; also proposing this alt hook, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

ALT4 hook has inline citation, AGF on source requiring password/paid access. Crossing off ALT3 as unsupported after recent revisions. Thank you for checking for and eliminating any close paraphrasing from Spanish sources, so this article could be used in DYK. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:17, 13 July 2012 (UTC)