Template:Did you know nominations/Benty Grange helmet

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:15, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Benty Grange helmet[edit]

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Benty Grange helmet

... that the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured) is of the type worn in Beowulf?

Reviewed: Muntz Jet
Comment: Still working on expanding

5x expanded by Usernameunique (talk). Self-nominated at 22:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC).

I will review this. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:03, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Interesting facts, on excellent sources, no copyvio obvious. The article is already long enough, the lead image is exquisite! - You plan to expand, - please let me know when the review should be continued. At present, three sources are not used. I confess that I don't like the second image. It's not in focus, and we see the boar better on the other. It also intrudes the ref section, but I expect that to change with expansion. Please avoid one-sentence paragraphs as in the lead. - Hook: I think "worn in Beowulf" is not a good phrase for the average reader who may think that Beowulf means a man. We have room for an explanation ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:12, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

What about this alternative, which expands a little on who Beowulf is? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

ALT1: ... that the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured) is of the type worn by the hero Beowulf in the epic poem that bears his name?

The image might be improved by cutting out the rather busy background; you'd see the boar more easily. I'm not sure that the source says that a boar-crested helmet is actually worn by Beowulf, or just by people appearing in the poem; I don't remember the text well enough to recognise the wearers referred to in the source. HLHJ (talk) 15:00, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

HLHJ Added the relevant section ("Boar-crests in Beowulf") to the page. The only time Beowulf's helmet is described with boar imagery is in line 1453, where it is "adorned ... with boar-shapes". The scholarly consensus is that these "boar-shapes" are not a freestanding boar-crest like on the Benty Grange helmet, but something more like the boars on the eyebrows of the Sutton Hoo helmet. Agree with you and Gerda Arendt that the images are not ideal, but unfortunately there doesn't appear to be anything else available. Here are some various alts; also open to other options.

ALT2: ~~... that the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured) is like those worn by the warriors in the epic poem Beowulf?~~

ALT3: ~~... that the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured) is like those worn by the poetical warriors in Beowulf?~~

ALT4: ~~... that the warriors in Beowulf wear helmets like the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured)?~~ --Usernameunique (talk) 21:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! I confess that "poetical warriors" made me smile ;) - Why not "in the epic poem", which could be added to ALT2? Perhaps mention the "lamentation" ("lament"?)? - Btw, I like to see your FAC progressing, - I planned to review, but will probably look for one where comments are needed more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

If you don't use a citation, please remove ref=harv, - or people like me see five warnings ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, added "in the epic poem" to ALT2 as suggested. Glad you appreciate the Guilden Morden boar nomination! Gevninge helmet fragment still needs some work, but I intend to nominate it next. I recently installed the script as well (so useful!), so also have those five errors blowing up the "Bibliography" section. Have just addressed three of them, and will try to add citations to the remaining two shortly. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:12, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Benty Grange helmet

I meant something more like this image, with the background cropped out. Maybe not "the" warriors, as there are some that don't wear them. I liked ALT4, but not fashed either way. HLHJ (talk) 23:23, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

HLHJ, that image is fantastic, thank you! Far more distinctive and attention-grabbing than the original. Is there any chance you might upload a version with a transparent background as well? The original photo is used in a number of places and a transparent version would be helpful (e.g., here: Sutton Hoo helmet#Anglo-Saxon). Suggesting alts with minor modifications as you proposed:

ALT5: ... that the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured) is like those worn by warriors in the epic poem Beowulf?

ALT6: ~~... that warriors in Beowulf wear helmets like the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured)?~~ --Usernameunique (talk) 23:58, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

old JPG, background black
PNG, transparent background but fuzzier from lost resolution
JPG, background white
JPG, background bright blue so anyone can change it to anything else

Here you go. Tidied it up a bit more, too. JPG does not do transparency, so it is a PNG, and has lost resolution in the conversion. It's actually pretty lousy: due to my stupid initial decision to use the foreground select tool rather than the intelligent scissors in the GIMP there are a few transparent pixels randomly in the interior of the helm. This will show up if one makes the background, say, blue. I can fix this, it's just work, so let me know if it's a problem. If you use the word "epic" it might be worth a wikilink.HLHJ (talk) 01:31, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

HLHJ Thanks again! I've updated a few articles with the new images. Also added a link to epic poetry to ALT5 per your suggestion. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:50, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. I've tried to remove the red background showing through the transparent support; removing the black showing through would be a pain in the neck, so the transparency is not obvious on a non-black ground. I've stuck the XCF file on Commons in case anyone else wants to play with it. Next time I go to a museum, I'm bringing a greenscreen, hauling everything out of its cabinet... no, the curators would probably object. HLHJ (talk) 03:26, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Stunning! Thank you both! I like the black background best. Here's a fusion of ALT5 and ALT6:

ALT7: ... that warriors in the epic poem Beowulf wear helmets like the boar-crested Benty Grange helmet (pictured)?

(sorry for a late signature but here you go, and my pleasure:) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

@HLHJ and Gerda Arendt: Yes, thank you both for your work and improvements. Agreed on the black background, it really pops. Made a tiny correction to ALT7 (missing the word "the"), which looks great. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:28, 5 October 2017 (UTC)