Template:Did you know nominations/Berit Lindholm

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

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Berit Lindholm

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Berit Lindholm
Berit Lindholm

5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Storye book (talk) at 10:20, 15 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Berit Lindholm; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Thank you for the nomination, Storye book. I'll add in the article - because I believe it's important for this kind of hooks, that this event - singing one of the heaviest literature there is for a dramatic soprano - happened only four years after she had made her debut in a (comparably light) Mozart role in Sweden. The well-known conductor couldn't wait longer as he was already old. I prefer the original, because his vision of her future which she would fulfill, singing the role at the big houses completely, seems more remarkable to me that the wording of this critic (may he forgive me if still alive) which could be about almost anything.
ALT0a: ... that only four years after her debut in Stockholm, Berit Lindholm (pictured) was invited by Leopold Stokowski to perform the dramatic final scene from Wagner's The Twilight of the Gods at the Royal Festival Hall?
I reviewed the above-mentioned article.
I hope we can have the image because otherwise we'd have to add some year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Article meets DYK requirements (it was a 5x expansion), with her RD appearance not being disqualifying for DYK purposes. I didn't find any close paraphrasing and a QPQ has been provided. Among the hooks proposed, ALT1 is probably the best and probably appeals the most to non-specialists. ALT0 and ALT0a appeal more to opera fans and not to general audiences since their context may not be easily gotten by non-specialists. With that in mind, ALT1, which is cited inline and verified in the source, is approved. The image is CC-BY-SA so it's okay; I will leave it to the promoter on whether or not to use the image. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:33, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
    I confess that I believe no DYK may be better than ALT1. The pun of a critic the only thing we say about one of the leading sopranos of her time? For the millions of people who check out the Main page but will not click, this will be all they take home about her? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt, Narutolovehinata5, and Storye book: Gerda states, ...no DYK may be better than ALT1"? I need a biographical hook for a set, but if we are going to workshop the hook I have to move on. Bruxton (talk) 14:18, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
@Bruxton: I don't see anything else in the article that would work as a hook that appeals to non-specialist audiences, so ALT1 it is. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:20, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: In the past if Gerda is dissatisfied the hook gets moved to errors. I will promote it and hope that does not happen. Bruxton (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

per discussion, I've pulled this hook out of prep. I've struck ALT1, and the following hooks remain on the table:

A viable hook is needed for the nomination to proceed. Pinging @Storye book, Gerda Arendt, Narutolovehinata5, TSventon, Floquenbeam, Kusma, and Bruxton as active participants. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

  • My preference is ALT3. It seems interesting since there's the unusual contrast between being an opera singer and a primary school singer, and also because I am somewhat wary of "first" hooks unless their sourcing is airtight. We've had too many cases in the past of "first" hooks where they turned out to not be the first and I'm not confident that the sourcing is strong enough to rule out any previous Isolde performers in the Soviet Union before Lindholm. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • My preference is ALT3 which avoids "first" but still says so - this is interesting and specific to her. My second choice is ALT0a which was struck. The fact was at its time in papers not only in Sweden and London but even Canada, and not in specialist circles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding what "specialist" means. The term "specialist" in DYK parlance means that a hook requires special knowledge or interest to be understood, and per the guidelines, such hooks should generally be avoided. In the case of ALT0a, the hook requires knowing who Stokowski is and what The Twilight of the Gods and the Royal Festival Hall are. It also requires that the reader understand that Stokowski is a big deal in opera and that both the opera in question and the venue are big deals as well. That is very specialist knowledge and something the average reader would probably not know. An opera fan would get it, but maybe not the typical layperson. If the reader sees ALT0a (especially if such a hook ends up being promoted without the image), they likely won't understand why Lindholm doing that role is such a big deal. It's also frankly a very complicated hook and has too many details. The other hook proposals here are much simpler and would be more easily understood even by people who aren't so familiar with opera. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I think you are misunderstanding what "requires specialist knowledge" means. We will have people who remember Stokowski, and for others, there's a link. Same for The Twilight (which seems an interesting title without previous knowledge), and the Royal Festival Hall, which - even for people who don't know that the hall in London is meant - evokes "Royal" and "Festival". - The charm of Wikipedia is to have links for those who don't know and want to explore, and the spirit of DYK - for me - is pass rich information to the curious. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • 2a is less problematic than 2, as the "first" claim is not fully in wikivoice. —Kusma (talk) 07:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • theleekycauldron, thank you, I have added the sources. TSventon (talk) 08:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I have unstruck ALT0a per Gerda's comment above, and because this discussion has been re-opened. Of the currently available hooks, I prefer ALT0a, because it tells of an unusually fast-tracked achievement. There have been concerns about the veracity of ALTs 2 and 2a (although I don't agree with the concerns, I respect the majority view on ALT2.). Per the recent comments on Wikipedia talk:DYK, I see now that ALT2a is OK. ALT3 is not tenable as it openly insults the subject, with nothing to balance or mitigate the insult (ALT1 was struck because it may have had a frivolous aspect, but it was not an open insult at the level of ALT3). Storye book (talk) 09:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't see ALT3 being meant to be an insult though. I think it was just meant to highlight her previous career. ALT0a is simply way too specialist and requires deep knowledge about the opera scene. It also harkens back to Johnbod's comment at WT:DYK: hooks that are basically about people doing their jobs are usually a bad fit for DYK. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Having said that, if people still want the primary school teacher angle without the "insult", we could go with:
ALT4 ... that opera singer Berit Lindholm studied to be a primary school teacher?
ALT4a ... that during the early years of her opera career, soprano Berit Lindholm studied to be a primary school teacher?
ALT4b ... that soprano Berit Lindholm studied to be a primary teacher during the early years of her opera career?
Again, I don't see ALT3 as being meant to be an insult and in fact the article says that said comment was apparently famous. Maybe it was meant to be surprise, or maybe it was meant to refer to her earlier career? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I have added some explanation of "damn primary school teacher" to the article talk page here. TSventon (talk) 11:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
@TSventon: Thank you for the info. Please give us a hook about Lindholm using the phrase as her memoir title? If she "owned it" by doing so, maybe that would be OK. Gerda Arendt? Storye book (talk) 11:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, and fine for the article, but a hook about it would not be for me, as explained above. The recent three alts saying that some opera singer was a primary teacher before are extremely un-personal, and this for a woman who was one of three names known worldwide during her prime decade, and for whom we have two working suggestions mentioning international glamour, one even of her personal pride. - The book title is a good thing if you know already how great she was, and there's this gap, but without context - and while some of our readers will remember the name, others will not - it's just poor, and a shame for the man who said so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I don't think having a hook about her primary school teacher training would be disrespecting her. It was part of her life and she didn't seem to be ashamed of it. If anything, it's actually interesting because it shows that opera singers don't always start out as opera singers and that it's not uncommon for them to come from different backgrounds. That's an idea that probably many non-opera fans would not even know and may find surprising. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
You say it yourself: it is not uncommon. How can something not uncommon be interesting? It's not disrespect, it's just that we'd say something about a very singular person that could be said about many others, and that gives not the slightest idea where and when she worked, and what was special about her. There will be people who looked at her article when we had her on Recent deaths, or by one of the international obits. They would be disappointed about some commonplace information.

I suggest, as the discussion is growing again, to make a little table (I tried a wikitable but it didn't work within this template) where people can give numbers for levels of interesting, from 0 (not interesting) to 5 (very interesting), looking at the hooks

ALT0a London, ALT2a Moscow, ALT3 quote, ALT4 teacher. I start: 4 - 5 - 0 - 0 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:14, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that, 1. ALT0a is reliant on deep knowledge about opera, and 2. it's a very complicated hook and can be hard to follow. Long hooks aren't necessarily bad, but ALT0a is basically pushing too much information, let alone information that is specialist. For the record, I would have had similar views even if it was a hook about an actor in a Hollywood film or an American TV station. I know I'm repeating myself here, but hooks aren't necessarily about what is special about a particular person or subject, they're supposed to be something that encourages the reader to learn more about the topic. That's why they're called hooks. They're not meant to be a giveaway. If you're basically giving away all that needs to be known about the subject in the hook, like what ALT0a is doing, that's not a DYK hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT0a London, ALT2a Moscow, ALT3 quote, ALT4 teacher: 5 - 4 - 0 - 1. Storye book (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5:. (1) ALT0a is not reliant on deep knowledge about opera, because its links explain everything. Also, our audience in general is neither stupid nor pig-ignorant. Never underestimate your audience. At the very least, most of them know about Pavarotti and Nessun Dorma.(2) ALT0a is arranged in a logical manner, and is clearly written; therefore it is not complicated and its logic is not hard to follow. How about we have some constructive reviewing from you, instead? You could have asked for a shortened version of that hook, e.g. something like:
  • ALT0b: ... that not long after her debut, Berit Lindholm (pictured) performed in The Twilight of the Gods at the Royal Festival Hall? Storye book (talk) 19:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT0c: ... that not long after her debut, Berit Lindholm (pictured) sang in the last scene of Wagner's The Twilight of the Gods at the Royal Festival Hall? Storye book (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Again, to quote Johnbod, hooks that are basically "The fooist Fred Foo did [something that's exactly what one would expect a fooist to do] in date/place" should generally be avoided. Both ALT0b and ALT0c basically the same thing: "The opera singer Berit Lindholm played an opera role in a place", which fits Johnbod's description. The other hooks don't have this issue. Anyway, per the above discussion, it seems that Lindholm didn't actually consider the "damn schoolteacher" line an insult, or if she did, she reclaimed it and used it as the title of her memoir. Maybe a hook based on that would work instead? That would probably be far more eyecatching to the general audience than a hook saying she performed a role. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
@TSventon: The memoir thing isn't in the article right now. Could you add it to the article and fashion a hook about it? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:53, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I have added the memoir to the article, but I am not convinced that the title makes a good hook
  • ALT5 ... that opera singer Berit Lindholm (pictured) was said to have been called "that damn primary school teacher" and used it in the title of her memoir? TSventon (talk) 01:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT5a ... that opera singer Berit Lindholm (pictured) was said to have been called "that damn primary school teacher" by her first director and used it in the title of her memoir? TSventon (talk) 10:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I suppose that should solve the issue about the angle being "insulting"? In this case, Lindholm using the "primary school teacher" wording in her memoir would be a form of reclaiming. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
After giving this some thought, ALT5 (perhaps with some refinement that can be done in prep) is the best option here. My preference would have actually been ALT2a, but the sourcing doesn't seem to be strong enough to rule out any possible previous Isolde performers in the Soviet Union (to recap, DYK has had issues with "first" hooks before and I would have wanted to see airtight sourcing for that claim), ALT4 and its variants appear to be non-starters so I'm dropping those.
ALT0 and variants, again, are reliant on special knowledge. The significance of the hooks is not clear even with the links; you actually have to click on the links to realize the hook information is a big deal, instead of being self evident. ALT0a is the one that is most like this, with ALT0b and ALT0c having similar issues except the fact that both are basically saying "Did you know that Berit Lindholm did her job at this place?" There were objections raised about ALT3, but I think ALT5 solves that and shows that Lindholm had reclaimed the "primary school teacher" thing.
Finally, there was some discussion that ALT1 was suitable, but there were strong objections to that wording even with clarifications, and given that the hook was pulled over said objections, ALT1 is going nowhere.
With that in mind, only ALT5 is approved, and all other hook options are disapproved. The discussion has been very tiring and it would be in everyone's best interest to get this done and over with and move on. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
@TSventon: Actually, per WP:INTEXT and currently-open discussion at WT:DYK, it might worth mentioning in ALT5 that it was her director who said it, but otherwhise the hook is GTG. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I am sorry to be disobedient, but after having researched last night and having updated the article I want at least to write down here what I found. I thank Victoria for adding about the audience's enthusiasm in Moscow. I found a better source that carefully says "rarely performed", not "first". In that light, here's
ALT2b: ... that the Swedish dramatic soprano Berit Lindholm portrayed Wagner's Isolde in a pioneering tour of the Vienna State Opera to the Bolshoi Theatre in Moscow in 1971?
We could add "during the Cold War", for people who don't immediately associate the politics of 1971 but you want it short. - We could add "to an enthusiastic audience", looking at the flower bouquets, but you want it short.
I oppose ALT5: the title of the book is "Court singer - " and then the quote. From the level of a decorated celebrated woman, the "damn primary school teacher" may be somewhat funny in contrast. Without that context, it seems just poor and uninviting to me. It also suffers in translation. If we absolutely want a quote we could use "Tall, and remarkably slim for so epic a voice", - the typical Brünnhilde at the time was "a formidable large woman". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Again, ALT2b does not address the concern: it's again basically saying that Lindholm did her job. There is a reason why role hooks are not exactly well-liked on DYK and ALT2b is basically a role hook. There's also something lost in translation I think: ALT5 doesn't suggest that the quote was the title, but rather it was used in the title. There's a difference and there's nuance in that meaning. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Thank you for making an effort to be more constructive, by finally choosing a hook. I am not objecting to the hook myself, but I am not happy about the assumption that it can be re-written in prep. This discussion has already been bounced back from prep, because premature promotion meant that those who did not like the hook had to then interrupt prep to argue about it. So - if anyone is reading this and has any objections to this hook, please could they have their say here and now, before the hook is promoted? Or, to put it another way, please could the promoter kindly allow a few days before promoting, so that objectors may get a chance to object here, and not in prep? (Note: I have added "pictured" to the hook so that the promoter gets a choice, about whether to use the picture). Storye book (talk) 08:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: According to Facebook, The funeral for Berit Lindholm will take place 30. August 2 PM at the Kungsholms church (Kungsholms Kyrka), so perhaps we should try to run this in the first set on 30 August a week from now. I have added Alt5a as suggested. TSventon (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
    TSventon, we have only one set at present. Thank you for adding to the article, - I add you as conom. Narutolovehinata5, as I said in the other nom you are reviewing: I hate to say what's wrong, but to claim a performance is Moscow in 1971 was just "doing her job" misses how sensational that was. (The same goes for the extraordinary London concert.) Especially on a funeral day, I'd prefer to see her connected to a role that only few can perform at all, and even fewer perform as well as she did, done in East-West cultural exchange, than little ALT5. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
    I see that we switched to two sets today. Why would you want the first set? For most of that time, Europe is sleeping. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
    I did not suggest that she wasn't good at her job, and the article makes it clear she was an accomplished opera artist, and her death is a major loss for the industry. I'm just saying that a DYK hook does not need to focus on exactly what she is best known for. It can just be something that makes people want to read more about her, that hooks them in, then there they learn about her accomplishments in life including her Soviet appearance. This really applies to every subject on DYK and not just opera artists: hooks need not necessarily about the thing someone is best known for, just something that makes people interested to read more. The new WP:Did you know/Guidelines probably explains it better than I ever could: The most interesting hooks are the ones that leave the reader wanting to know more... a hook that excites the reader into wanting to know more goes a long way towards that goal. Basically saying in the hook exactly what she is known for (the Isolde role) goes against that since it basically tells the reader outright what they need to know. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
I am sorry not have time to read this all, again. My personal wish - and that's what I said above - is to show her her best on her funeral day. The way she immortalised that poor man's possibly sloppy, possibly humourous little remark was not her best. He died in a tragic accident. We don't have to repeat now that she died that he obviously didn't see her qualifications immediately. I am also a woman, and don't like a hook about a woman being mostly what a man said about her: better what she did. Regarding "exactly what she is known for": I expect a very small number of our readers to know that, as her prime was decades ago, and she made few recordings, so isn't present in radio programs. This is our chance to make it known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
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