Template:Did you know nominations/Blagoje Jovovic
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Hawkeye7 (talk) 04:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Too many issues and nothing done for over a month.
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Blagoje Jovovic
[edit]- ... that Blagoje Jovovic was supposed to kill Ante Pavelic on the anniversary of Independent State of Croatia's creation, but attacked him on the following day instead?
Created by Aleksa Lukic (talk). Self nominated at 01:53, 24 June 2014 (UTC).
- Over two times the minimum character limit, created today and is neutral. I couldn’t find any word for word copying. However, the last few sentences of the article was uncited and the actual facts that the hook is based upon need to be internally cited (just citing the end of the paragraph won’t work). The hook is under 200 characters and is interesting. The image is licensed under acceptable licenses for being used on DYK. Just clear up the citation issues and this DYK hook will be good to go. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Done Did you have this in mind? Alex discussion ★ 03:41, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Ok, everything looks good to go.Per the below, I've removed my check. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)- Hold on. The paragraph on the assassination in the article does not make a lot of sense in English (it needs a copy-edit at the very least) and seems to be a direct translation (not paraphrased) from the source cited. The source appears to be a Serbian tabloid news site, so I don't know whether this would normally be classified as a reliable source. Regardless of that, I noticed that the image was taken from the same news site and then a given a CC licence by the nominator which doesn't seem right, especially as the news site credits the image to Wikipedia in the first place. As the news site had presumably taken the image from some other language's wikipedia, I had a look at the most obvious candidates and found that the image and text for the news site's article came from the Serbian Wikipedia article. This is almost circular referencing. The original referencing for the Serbian article came from a web article that is now a dead link, but according to (the admittedly not very reliable) Google Translate was called "The truth about the assassination of a war criminal Ante Pavelic" and was hosted on the web site of the "Serbian National Defence Council of America"; neither the article nor the web site have particularly neutral sounding titles and I doubt we can think of them as reliable sources. Belle (talk) 14:00, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Bellemora I'm not sure what paragraph in particular you're referring to. If you had the book quote in mind, it had to be translated directly, because it's a quotation from the book. I used Telegraf.rs as a source, but if you pay more attention, you could see that my assertions are supported by other reliable sources as well (in the 'References' section). As for the picture, I've probably overlooked that (that website's licensing confused me), so I will change the licensing and the picture can be removed. Moreover, I couldn't find the quotation saying "The truth about the assassination of a war criminal Ante Pavelic", so could you please provide a link? And if you get into account all the atrocities and things a sane mind couldn't even imagine that Ante Pavelic is responsible of, you wouldn't care much of "neutral sounding". Alex discussion ★ 17:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm talking about the whole section on the assassination which (although translated) seems to be nearly identically phrased and structured across this article, the Telegraf article and the Serbian Wikipedia article (the Serbian WP article omits the book extract though). I think that if you have other more reliable sources then you should to use them to support the claims in the article rather than use the Telegraf which has obviously cribbed from the Serbian WP article. "The truth about the assassination of a war criminal Ante Pavelic" was the Google Translate rendering of "Истина о атентату на ратног злочинца Анту Павелића" found as the cited source in [1]. As for neutrality, it is one of the DYK criteria. Belle (talk) 00:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, I am kind of embarrassed right now for missing all of this. I only read English, and I kind of just assumed that the provided news source was a reputable news source and not a copy of another Wikipedia. Regardless, I found a source that might come in handy: [2]. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 02:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'm talking about the whole section on the assassination which (although translated) seems to be nearly identically phrased and structured across this article, the Telegraf article and the Serbian Wikipedia article (the Serbian WP article omits the book extract though). I think that if you have other more reliable sources then you should to use them to support the claims in the article rather than use the Telegraf which has obviously cribbed from the Serbian WP article. "The truth about the assassination of a war criminal Ante Pavelic" was the Google Translate rendering of "Истина о атентату на ратног злочинца Анту Павелића" found as the cited source in [1]. As for neutrality, it is one of the DYK criteria. Belle (talk) 00:50, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Bellemora I'm not sure what paragraph in particular you're referring to. If you had the book quote in mind, it had to be translated directly, because it's a quotation from the book. I used Telegraf.rs as a source, but if you pay more attention, you could see that my assertions are supported by other reliable sources as well (in the 'References' section). As for the picture, I've probably overlooked that (that website's licensing confused me), so I will change the licensing and the picture can be removed. Moreover, I couldn't find the quotation saying "The truth about the assassination of a war criminal Ante Pavelic", so could you please provide a link? And if you get into account all the atrocities and things a sane mind couldn't even imagine that Ante Pavelic is responsible of, you wouldn't care much of "neutral sounding". Alex discussion ★ 17:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the picture and improved the referencing a little bit. Is it OK now? Alex discussion ★ 10:18, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- The text is still identical to the Telegraf article, and the new source you added seems to be another version of Tihomir Tiho Burzanovic account which is already in the pdf (3rd ref) Belle (talk) 14:05, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Bellemora I've improved the referencing as you noted. The author on the Serbian Wikipedia has originally created that content and he used that book as a source. Is it acceptable now? Alex discussion ★ 11:37, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't forgotten this, it is just that checking Serbian sources takes a while. Belle (talk) 01:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Also, an attribution tag of some sort is needed to indicate that this translates heavily from the Serbian Wikipedia (this is a requirement of all articles that translate heavily from another language Wikipedia so the attribution section of the Creative Commons license is met). I'll try to find the tag myself and get it posted in talk. Also, I'll defer to Belle for final approval since she seems competent at working with foreign language sources. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 03:24, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- I need to point out also that I HAVEN'T TRANSLATED the content, but I have REPHRASED it and then that rephrased content I've translated into English. Alex discussion ★ 15:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- The source which is used in the citations for the paragraph preceding the excerpt does not appear to include many of the details "He then staggered, bent and he was begging for mercy" for example.
- I'm not sure what you mean about having rephrased and then translated something. Compare:
"On Wednesday, 10th April at 9 am, in the evening, after leaving the omnibus Pavelic is suspected in his first companion and turned in the direction of Blagoje and fired several shots. Jovovich ran for Pavelic and fired five bullets in his direction. Two bullets struck Pavelic, who stumbled, but bent began to cries of pain and begs for mercy." - Serbian WP
- I haven't forgotten this, it is just that checking Serbian sources takes a while. Belle (talk) 01:04, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- Bellemora I've improved the referencing as you noted. The author on the Serbian Wikipedia has originally created that content and he used that book as a source. Is it acceptable now? Alex discussion ★ 11:37, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
"On Wednesday, April 10 at 9 am in the evening, after leaving the omnibus Pavelic is suspected in his first companion and turned in the direction of Blagoje fired several shots. Jovovich ran for Pavelic and fired five bullets in his direction. Two bullets struck Pavelic, who stumbled, but bent began to cries of pain and begs for mercy." - Telegraf
"On April 10 at 9 o’clock PM Pavelic, after he doubted his first companion, he turned back and fired several shots towards Jovovic. Jovovic then started running after Pavelic and in his direction he fired five shots, out of which two hit him. He then staggered, bent and he was begging for mercy" - this article
- This part of the article at least is almost identical to the Telegraf and Serbian WP article in its structure, phrasing and inclusion of details that I can't see in the source. There are also significant gaps or errors in the article; for example, it implies that the assassination attempt took place in Italy when it was in Argentina. This needs more work, bringing in line with the sources and a preferably a copy edit from another bilingual editor ("after he doubted his first companion" for instance is hard to understand and it is unclear whether the "PM" in "9 o’clock PM Pavelic" means "9pm" or "Prime Minister Pavelic"). Belle (talk) 16:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- All right. Thanks. I've corrected issues as you noted. If you could please note more of them, it would be appreciated. Have you checked the section about beginning for mercy in the book. I will look it up soon. But if it's falsification, you can remove it. I'm not sure if there's a copy in English, but if you think so, don't hesitate to remove it. Alex discussion ★ 18:06, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm really not the best person to ask (I speak a lot of languages but Serbo-Croat isn't one of them, and Google Translate can give an idea at best). At this stage you really need a completely bilingual copyeditor or somebody with Serbian as a strong second language. Your correction for "after he doubted his first companion" for example is not a lot clearer and I can't see exactly what is meant from the source. Did Pavelic recognize Jovovic's companion? In the source it appears that Pavelic separated from a companion (bodyguard?) he was walking with, but, as I say, the translation is not good. Belle (talk) 09:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- Alex, are you doing anything on this or shall we close it? Belle (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Too many issues and nothing done for over a month. (Which is a pity as I struggled through a lot of Serbian reviewing this). Belle (talk) 23:13, 7 August 2014 (UTC)