Template:Did you know nominations/Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Amkgp (talk) 18:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 17:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC).

  • if "Psalmlied" is a word it would be good to add it to Wiktionary: [1], as even German words should be in there. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    German is flexible. Do we have Weihnachtslied, Sommerlied, Abendlied, Schunkellied, Schlaflied ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt, what does "beginning of Christian hymns" mean? CMD (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Do you think that "first line" would be clearer than "beginning"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Possibly. Is it only the first line that is used in hymns? The article seems to be about the 1963 longer piece. CMD (talk) 16:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Did you read it? Because if it's that unclear I need to change something. The shorter piece will never get an article of its own, so this should cover both. Perhaps there should be two infoboxes. Six of the older song's eight lines are also part of the younger one, - is that clear? Can we perhaps have this conversation on the article talk, instead of the DYK nomination? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
In the hope that recent copyedits have fixed my initial questions, suggesting a slight rewrite to make an:
ALT1: ... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde", originally a 17th-century Christmas carol, was adapted into a longer hymn based on Psalm 148 in order to be part of a common German Catholic hymnal? CMD (talk) 14:52, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
New enough and long enough. QPQ done. Asking for new review on hooks. CMD (talk) 11:38, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for ALT1, however, I don't believe that "in order to" really is what happened. It wasn't that the short song was even considered to be included, and made possible by expansion, - as it reads to me. Perhaps: "for the common hymnal ...". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Sure.
ALT1b: ... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde", originally a 17th-century Christmas carol, was adapted into a longer hymn based on Psalm 148 for the common German Catholic hymnal?CMD (talk) 17:28, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
That's better, striking the other, however: readers who don't read German get no clue to what the line means, so - unless the know their psalms - no hint at gladness of Heaven and Earth. - It would also profit from a year for the second, because who would think it took the Germans so long to have a common hymnal? - Id rather mention the author - a woman! - than the hymnal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Working within the 200 character limit, some options:
ALT1c: ... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde" (calling Heaven and Earth to be glad), originally a 17th-century Christmas carol, was adapted in 1963 into a hymn for the common German Catholic hymnal?
ALT1d: ... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde" (calling Heaven and Earth to be glad), originally a 17th-century Christmas carol, was adapted into a hymn by Maria Luise Thurmair in 1963 for a hymnal?
CMD (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Good ideas, but - had to come, sorry - in brackets we usually have the translation. My take picking up some ideas, with Christmas in mind, no intention to give that to only one denomination, better include even Jewish roots:
ALT2: ... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde", calling Heaven and Earth to be glad, was originally a short 17th-century Christmas carol that Maria Luise Thurmair expanded in 1963 to a hymn based on Psalm 148? - I plan to work on it, and say more on the marvellous melody, but my next topic is Beethoven's 250th bday. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Bolding Psalm 148 as second article, expanded by Yoninah and myself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Added 2nd QPQ. Yoninah (talk) 12:25, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Reviewing Alt2 since Yoninah can't, the first bold article was 5x expanded seven days before the original nom, and the second bold article was 5x expanded in the last week. Same source for hook fact used in both articles; the citation in the hymn article could be moved up to the relevant sentence but it seems clear. Other sources for being a Christmas carol and Hebrew are present, though most are in German. Articles seem to have no issues, though earwig tool is down again at the moment; good faith based on the article authors involved. I question the hook wording, though: it seems convoluted for what it's trying to say. Would it not be simpler to write "... that "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde", originally a Christmas carol, was set to the Hebrew Psalm 148 by Maria Luise Thurmair in 1963?" - removes the content detail that isn't typically DYK appropriate, and reorders the sentence both for ease of reading and to connect the facts rather than present it as separate parts. I also think it needs to mention that the psalm is Hebrew, as Gerda suggested that makes it more interesting and not everyone will know. Kingsif (talk) 21:59, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for the review. I do not know a single person who would not know that the Psalms were originally in Hebrew, but I assume that many will not know what "Erfreue dich, Himmel" means, and felt we need some translation. I also think that the precise "17th-century" is not much longer than the vague "originally". Also: "was set to" is a phrase used to say "was set to music", and I would not know what it means regarding a psalm. I like to include an author, especially when a woman, but if you think it's too much detail, she might be the first to be dropped, as the original hook tried. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:17, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I do not know a single person who would not know that the Psalms were originally in Hebrew - lucky you. I just asked the two people in the room with me and got 0 for 2. You overestimate the average person's religious knowledge. I'd wager even casual American Christians still think it was English for some reason, or maybe Latin. many will not know what "Erfreue dich, Himmel" means - also true, but it's not necessary to understand the hook, as everyone will recognize it's a title. "17th-century" is not much longer than the vague "originally" - but "17th century" needs extra words to fit it in the sentence, and I had assumed the hook-y part was that a Christmas carol (regardless of age) was adapted. What's so interesting about it being from the 1600s specifically? I find the sentence structure the most pressing issue, though, if you'd like to propose hooks based on Alt2 but easier to read, I'll be happy to review them. Kingsif (talk) 22:42, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Past midnight where I live, so just a brief reply. Tell those who think Latin that the New Testament was written in Greek, and the Old (including the Psalms) in Hebrew. What I find interesting but can't say in hook format is that the gladness of Heaven and Earth is already the topic of the psalm, please read, it's not as long as Psalm 119. How about reviewing the original hook, instead of ALT2? See you after sleep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:07, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Kingsif about Psalms knowledge. Other than Charles Spurgeon and Matthew Henry, whom I regularly use as sources and who can interpret the Psalms based on their Hebrew etymology, most preachers and readers seem to be familiar only with the King James Version, which is of course English. Yoninah (talk) 00:04, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps I was unclear: I didn't mean readers to be able to read them in the original, but to know they were translated. We could still make a separate hook, Yoninah, about the psalm, and point out Hebrew, but in this context, it seems rather less relevant. All German theologians have to study these languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin), but I'm not sure one of the authors was specifically inspired by the Hebrew version.

  • Alt3 and 4 both good (I had read the original hook and found it a little confusing) - I have a preference for Alt3 with the mention of Thurmair. Kingsif (talk) 08:53, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the alts, Gerda. I also think ALT3 reads better. Yoninah (talk) 12:29, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
    Kingsif, unfortunately, looking closer, even ALT4 looks too long, - could we say "psalm details" instead of "details from the psalm" (or is that "Germanic")? We could drop "short" but that really looks like the shortest way to say something about that thing.
    ALT5: ... that Psalm 148, calling Heaven and Earth to be glad, inspired a short 17th-century Christmas carol, "Erfreue dich, Himmel, erfreue dich, Erde", and an expansion with more psalm details in 1963? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Gerda, ALT3 is hooky. ALT5 is an encyclopedia entry. You want readers to click on the articles to learn more, not tell them everything they have to know on the main page. Yoninah (talk) 13:00, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) @Gerda Arendt: Alt3 is the longest, at 203 characters including spaces, and Alt4 is fine. Clarity and length all measured, we can leave it to a promoter to judge if the extra 3 characters are too much. Alt5 is a run-on that is not clear on what it's actually saying. Kingsif (talk) 13:01, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Removing "short" is a simple solution to this. CMD (talk) 13:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Good idea, CMD. I tweaked ALT3 and ALT4, and struck ALT5. Yoninah (talk) 14:17, 17 December 2020 (UTC) re-ping Yoninah (talk) 14:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
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