Template:Did you know nominations/Eva Beem

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by 97198 (talk) 02:44, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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Eva and Abraham Beem[edit]

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  • ... that Eva Beem was a Dutch Jewish child who hid from the Nazis for several years in a village under a new identity?

Created/expanded by BabbaQ (talk), Hoops gza (talk). Nominated by BabbaQ (talk) at 20:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC).

  • The article is new enough, and just barely long enough, but it relies almost exclusively on blogs, self-published online presentations, and other unreliable sources. The sourcing problem extends to the hook—the claim of being given a new identity is sourced only to a post on Blogspot. The wording of the hook itself is OK, though not particularly remarkable; anything which could be done to make it a bit more interesting (not to mention better referenced) would be great.
  • Some improvements has been made by Yngvadottir. So then I will not withdraw the nomination for now. Thanks--BabbaQ (talk) 19:59, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Since one of the sources states "there were thousand of stories just like hers", does Beem really meet the threshold for notability? GoingBatty (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, there are thousands of stories. But hers are one of the more told and covered stories, because of this an article has been created. --BabbaQ (talk) 07:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Why is it that Eva's story is covered more often than the thousands of others? If there's something about her case which makes it particularly intriguing, then please add this to the hook. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:22, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The hook is now supported by a source in Dutch, though as I don't read Dutch I can't attest to its content or its reliability. Perhaps another reviewer who is fluent in Dutch could revisit the matter. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I removed the questionable sources and added two more reliable sources to the page. IMO it's ready to go. Article is new enough, long enough, adequately referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. QPQ done. Here is an alt suggestion:
  • ALT1: ... that the story of Eva Beem, a Dutch Jewish child who hid from the Nazis under an assumed identity and was gassed at Auschwitz at age 11, was first publicized in 1988? Yoninah (talk) 22:02, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Another reviewer needed to sign off on ALT1. Yoninah (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Can I ask why the article is titled after Eva? The sources cover both Eva and Abraham's (Eva en Bram) story - but not to be callous, Abraham was more pivotal in their consequential fate. Fuebaey (talk) 23:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
  • All the sources points to Eva as the "main character" so to speak. But if you can find sources to the contrary please change the article by all means :).--BabbaQ (talk) 11:49, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with Yoninah's suggestion. Sure, Eva was the older of the pair but all the sources listed on the page (save the Yad Vashem link) talk about the story of the Beem children. Neither is emphasised as the "main character" from what I've read. I don't think this hook would make sense otherwise:
ALT2: ... that two Dutch Jewish children were discovered by Nazi collaborators because one was found to have been circumcised?
which might address Psychonaut's concerns above. I don't really care for ALT1, it's a bit like the original hook - plain and unremarkable. Fuebaey (talk) 16:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @Fuebaey: lol, we get it you do not like our hooks and want to choose one yourself.. dont get your pants on fire mate :). Cheers.--BabbaQ (talk) 18:52, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. I prefer not to reject something without trying to come up with an alternative. If you don't like my suggestion, feel free to kick it into the long grass. Fuebaey (talk) 19:11, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @Fuebaey: for DYK purposes, your hook is not going to work, because the source doesn't say outright that they saw he was circumcised; it is just implied it. I moved the page to Eva and Abraham Beem. Could you review this revised ALT1, which incorporates the new page title?
  • ALT3: ... that the story of Eva and Abraham Beem, Dutch Jewish siblings who hid from the Nazis in a Christian village and were gassed at Auschwitz at ages 11 and 9, was first publicized in 1988? Yoninah (talk) 20:19, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The NRC source should confirm ALT2, if I read the translation correctly. Other reviewers have highlighted how unfortunately common Jewish stories like this (that emanated from Europe during World War II) were, so focusing on how they were discovered might add a sense of intrigue to the hook. If I were to go with ALT3, I would change "in a Christian village" to "with a Christian family" (Ermelo is not cited as predominately Christian) and probably leave out "and were gassed at Auschwitz at ages 11 and 9" because it sounds a bit too wordy (and again routine) for my liking. Fuebaey (talk) 13:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
  • You're right! I added the Dutch cite to the part about circumcision. So let's work with ALT2. Since this method of discovery, as well, was a common scenario in WWII, I think the children's names should be used to make it more personal. The article says nothing about Nazi collaborators, just that Dutch policeman arrested them. How about reworking ALT2 as:
  • ALT4: ... that though Dutch Jewish siblings Eva and Abraham Beem tried to hide from the Nazis in the home of a Christian family, Abraham's circumcision gave them away? Yoninah (talk) 15:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
  • You learn something new everyday. I didn't realise that method was common. Anyways going with AGF because I am slightly involved with the hook. If anyone has a problem with this result please feel free to comment. New article, nominated in time and long enough. The sourcing is still a bit on the light side but adequate (I'm only comfortable with reliablity of the NRC, Zijlstra's eight page book and Eva's Yad Vashem entry. I'm AGF on the book since I don't have access. I'd personally prefer two more decent sources but I think this'll scrape by WP:GNG). Neutral and I can't see any obvious copyright vios. ALT4 is mentioned and cited (to the NRC ref). QPQ done. Credit to Yoninah for salvaging this nom. Fuebaey (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
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