Template:Did you know nominations/Flag of Trenton, Georgia
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by — Yellow Dingo (talk) 07:00, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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Flag of Trenton, Georgia[edit]
The flag of Trenton, Georgia
... that Trenton, Georgia, adopted a version of the former state flag (pictured) to protest the state changing its flag?
- ALT1:
... that the Flag of Trenton, Georgia (pictured) was created in order for the city to avoid losing state funding for refusing to fly the new state flag of Georgia? - Reviewed: Hazel P. Heath
- Comment: I'd like to request that we use the flag as an image hook
- ALT1:
Created by The C of E (talk). Self-nominated at 09:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC).
Article is newly created, and with the image the hook is extremely catchy. It is fully cited and the cite for the hook facts are there, although the original hook is a composite of a couple of different sentences - there's a cite on one of them, which is good enough for me. Good to go IMO. Miyagawa (talk) 10:06, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment on using this as the lead hook. Wikipedia does not ban content. However, the confederate flag, of which this one is a variation, is seen in the United States as a symbol of slavery, racism, etc. etc. etc. Please read Modern display of the Confederate flag#Reactions_to_2015_Charleston_church_shooting. Let the promoter beware. — Maile (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed WP:NOTCENSORED and I will also point out we have the precedence of having the flag of apartheid South Africa, which was also associated in the Charleston shooting, displayed as the image on DYK and there were no complaints. Plus the hooks don't really make much sense without the flag being used with them. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:35, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- I have just struck ALT1, as there is no source that supports the assertion that the town had at any point refused to fly the new state flag, and indeed they continue to fly it today. I'd also like to challenge the assertion that the hooks don't make any sense without the image of the flag itself, because they both do. It would be more effective if the hook actually mentioned the Confederate Battle Flag inclusion as why the state flag was changed/city flag was created, but then I guess that could make it less likely to be selected as a lead hook. If a hook is not interesting without its image, perhaps it shouldn't be approved. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:39, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- I have since amended the alt to make it clearer. I personally do think that in the interests of free discussion that we should use it as an image hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- The C of E, please don't edit existing hooks; the progress of the nomination is always clearer when the old hook is retained and a new one is written. ALT1 is restored and restruck; I've placed your revised hook below as ALT2:
- ALT2:
... that the Flag of Trenton, Georgia (pictured) was created in order for the city to avoid losing state funding for continuing to fly the old state flag of Georgia?
- ALT2:
We need a new reviewer to check the ALT2 hook to make sure it is accurate and fully supported by the sources. I have my doubts, but let's get someone else to make sure the characterization and facts are supported. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:34, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- Paging @Miyagawa:. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
- I've duplicated a cite to cover Alt2, which is fine. As for the concerns about placing the Confederate flag on the main page - this is a twofold consideration. 1) This hook won't work at all without the image. 2) I don't see this as promoting what leads to those concerns - indeed, if anything, I think this shows up Trenton rather than saying that this was a good idea etc. Miyagawa (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
- The C of E, please don't edit existing hooks; the progress of the nomination is always clearer when the old hook is retained and a new one is written. ALT1 is restored and restruck; I've placed your revised hook below as ALT2:
- I have since amended the alt to make it clearer. I personally do think that in the interests of free discussion that we should use it as an image hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
- I have just struck ALT1, as there is no source that supports the assertion that the town had at any point refused to fly the new state flag, and indeed they continue to fly it today. I'd also like to challenge the assertion that the hooks don't make any sense without the image of the flag itself, because they both do. It would be more effective if the hook actually mentioned the Confederate Battle Flag inclusion as why the state flag was changed/city flag was created, but then I guess that could make it less likely to be selected as a lead hook. If a hook is not interesting without its image, perhaps it shouldn't be approved. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:39, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed WP:NOTCENSORED and I will also point out we have the precedence of having the flag of apartheid South Africa, which was also associated in the Charleston shooting, displayed as the image on DYK and there were no complaints. Plus the hooks don't really make much sense without the flag being used with them. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:35, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment on using this as the lead hook. Wikipedia does not ban content. However, the confederate flag, of which this one is a variation, is seen in the United States as a symbol of slavery, racism, etc. etc. etc. Please read Modern display of the Confederate flag#Reactions_to_2015_Charleston_church_shooting. Let the promoter beware. — Maile (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Returned from prep per this discussion at WT:DYK:
The hook makes a direct causal link between the flag's creation and the avoidance of financial penalisation. However, the reference for the hook in the article states: "If a county or municipality chooses to fly only the old flag, the state can withhold funds." and I don't see anything clearly stating that the flag was created with the purpose of avoiding the loss of state funding. It just seems that it was something that could have happened, and nowhere do I find a "the flag was created to avoid losing funding" statement. Furthermore I'm concerned that we're using "dixieoutfitters.com" as a reliable source for this kind of thing... what makes the website a reliable source? It looks like a clothing outlet to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: The source is The Atlanta Journal Constitution, but you have a good point about the hook not matching the intent of the source. Moreover, this hook was struck by the reviewers and then reinstated by the nominator, and somehow it made it into the prep without any real approval. I think that even more could be done with that hook, since the state changed its flag also as a protest. Yoninah (talk) 21:39, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: @Yoninah: The hook that made it to the prep was a version of the original alt which was not the first suggestion. The original appears to have been overlooked here but it is one that I think is clear in article and source. After all the original reviewer stated he preferred the original so the review stands on that, everything since seemed focussed on the alt. Therefore i think there is justification for putting it back with the originally preferred hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- But I think you could do more with the hook, like:
- ALT3:
... that Trenton, Georgia, protested the state changing its flag by adopting a version of the previous state flag (pictured), which itself had been designed as a protest?Yoninah (talk) 21:58, 26 October 2016 (UTC)- @Yoninah: I would be OK with that. I'd like to think it can now be put back in the prep in time to make it easier to fill tomorrow's gap. Or hopefully @The Rambling Man: or @Miyagawa: or someone else are around to give a tick to it if deemed that it needs it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- Happy to give the new hook a tick. Miyagawa (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Miyagawa: I'm just rereading footnote 1 and seeing that the flag was not designed as a protest, but later became a symbol of "protest and resistance". How about:
- ALT3a: ... that Trenton, Georgia, protested the state changing its flag by adopting a version of the previous state flag (pictured), which itself had been a symbol of protest? Yoninah (talk) 22:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
-
- Thank you. I'm reading through this long PDF, and am now seeing that it was considered a symbol of protest. As U.S. Congressman James Mackay said: "There was only one reason for putting the flag on there, like the gun rack in the back of a pickup truck, it telegraphs a message" (pp. 22-23). So I'm making a tiny change of "become" to "been". Yoninah (talk) 22:17, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: I would be OK with that. I'd like to think it can now be put back in the prep in time to make it easier to fill tomorrow's gap. Or hopefully @The Rambling Man: or @Miyagawa: or someone else are around to give a tick to it if deemed that it needs it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: @Yoninah: The hook that made it to the prep was a version of the original alt which was not the first suggestion. The original appears to have been overlooked here but it is one that I think is clear in article and source. After all the original reviewer stated he preferred the original so the review stands on that, everything since seemed focussed on the alt. Therefore i think there is justification for putting it back with the originally preferred hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2016 (UTC)