Template:Did you know nominations/Herbert Vivian
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 14:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
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Herbert Vivian
[edit]... that before the First World War, writer Herbert Vivian stood for Parliament four times as a Jacobite, failing each time? Source: Several- ALT1:... that Herbert Vivian founded two newspapers, wrote a dozen books and was a strong supporter of Italian Fascism before the Second World War? Source: Several
- ALT2:... that newspaper editor, author and journalist Herbert Vivian was an ardent Neo-Jacobite, Legitimist and ultimately Fascist? Source: Several
- ALT3:... that Herbert Vivian, a leader of the Neo-Jacobite Revival and later a fascist, was the first journalist to interview Winston Churchill? Sources: Neo-Jacobite leader: [1]. Fascist supporter: [2]. First Churchill interviewer: [3]
Created by Railfan23 (talk). Self-nominated at 08:08, 22 November 2018 (UTC).
- ^ Addison, Henry Robert; Oakes, Charles Henry; Lawson, William John; Sladen, Douglas Brooke Wheelton (1903). Who's who. Vol. 55. A. & C. Black.
- ^ Webber, G. C. (16 October 2015). The Ideology of the British Right, 1918-1939. Routledge. p. 164.
- ^ "1908: Churchill Talks of His Hopes, Work and Ideals". Finest Hour. International Churchill Society. Autumn 2009.
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- The article partially relies on The Shadow of Solomon by Laurence Gardner, who appears to be a WP:FRINGE author. It also makes some questionable conclusions cited to primary sources, e.g. saying Secret Societies Old and New "received poor reviews" but citing only one contemporary book to that effect. That he received support from Winston Churchill in the 1906 election is cited to a 1903 source. The claim that Vivan was a Knight of the Royal Serbian Order of Takovo is cited to his own book. The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction says The Master Sinner is wrongly attributed to Vivian. - Neutral:
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
Hook eligibility:
- Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith
- Interesting:
- Other problems: - The article says he unsuccessfully stood for Parliament four times, but not that it was a Jacobite platform each time. Alter the hook or the article, as appropriate. (It may also be appropriate to mention the fact in the lead.) ALT1 and ALT2 are fine.
| QPQ: None required. |
Overall: 
The material supported by the dubious sources can be cut while leaving a solid article eligible for DYK. It is predominantly based on contemporary sources (most of which I must accept in good faith), though--is there nothing more recent and more scholarly available? Also, some of the material you cite is available online; linking them will help editors verify your work. Kim Post (talk) 04:51, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, Kim Post, this is really useful feedback, I appreciate it. Let me work on the issues you highlighted and then report back. Railfan23 (talk) 17:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- I've updated the article, based on your feedback. I've replaced all the references from "The Shadow of Solomon". I've updated the conclusion about "Secret Societies Old and New" to say it received "mixed reviews" and cited a more positive review from The Spectator. I've expanded the section on his 1906 candidacy at Deptford. In the course of researching that, I found out that he was the first journalist to interview Winston Churchill, which seems a fairly significant fact. He is also described in a source as a "friend" of Churchill's which is consistent with Vivian's own account in his book "Myself not least, being the personal reminiscences of "X", which is treated as reliable by the Winston Churchill Society. I've found an independent source for the Order of Takovo. Finally, I've noted that the authorship of "Curse of Eden" and "Master Sinner" are disputed.
- Given the new details of the Deptford campaign, I've struck the original hook, which I agree isn't supported. I've added an ALT3 hook, which is now my favorite one. Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for your help, Railfan23 (talk) 03:53, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- ALT3 is well-sourced and certainly interesting! Might I suggest changing the word order to "... that Herbert Vivian, a leader of the Neo-Jacobite Revival and later a fascist, was the first journalist to interview Winston Churchill?" This focuses the hook on the interview, while still juxtaposing Vivian with Churchill.
- The sources have improved but you've introduced a new reliable source issue: "Michael James Alexander Stewart" is only a little better than Laurence Gardner. Using Neo-Jacobites as sources for each other creates an echo chamber. The cited point about the organization Vivian founded doesn't seem controversial, but in these cases the nature of the source should be explained in the text. Call it out as an explicitly Neo-Jacobite source and I think it passes WP:RS, so I would pass the review..
- Side note: you switched out the source for the police detachment "sent on the personal order of Queen Victoria" from Gardner to a contemporary source, but note that it does not describe the event the way Gardner described it. (It attributes Gladstone, not Victoria, and says the wreath-laying was eventually permitted.) The text must change when the supporting source changes, of course. I took a quick look at scholarly sources and came across an article about Vivian in Serbia you might find interesting. Kim Post (talk) 07:54, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks again, Kim. I definitely agree that your word order for ALT3 is better, and I've changed it above. Thanks for pointing out the issues with Michel Roger Lafosse - I should have checked into him further. I've added a note on the citation, and added two contemporary sources which corroborate the factual details. Hopefully this suffices. I'm happy to take out the Lafosse source, but I do think it has some value as a contemporary source, with the disclaimer on the citation. I also went back to sources and re-wrote the section about the wreath-laying. If you say nothing else about Vivian, he was a very good self-publicist! Thanks for all the help with the article. Railfan23 (talk) 23:30, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
With all questions resolved the article is ready for promotion. Kim Post (talk)
