Template:Did you know nominations/James B. Tapp

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 14:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

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James B. Tapp

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James Tapp with his P-51
James Tapp with his P-51

Created by Toadboy123 (talk). Self-nominated at 09:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/James B. Tapp; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

  • Article is new enough (created August 18) and easily long enough with > 10,000 characters of text. Earwig reveals substantial similarity (> 45%) with two sources, but that is due to the fact that the article quotes directly and extensively from Tapp's citations -- I suspect this is fine since the citations are government works. The hook is interesting, but it's inaccurate insofar as it asserts that Tapp was American's first flying ace. Frederick Libby is recognized as America's first flying ace for his service in World War I. See also List of World War I flying aces from the United States. The source cited in Tapp's case asserts more narrowly that he was "the first Army ace over Japan". Cbl62 (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
    • @Cbl62: My hook wanted to state that Tapp was the American to become flying ace while flying very long range (VLR) missions in the P-51 over Japan during WWII. Is there a way to edit the hook in such a way that it would be known that he was the first VLR mission ace over Japan ? Toadboy123 (talk) 23:26, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @Toadboy123: What about something like alt3 ... that James B. Tapp (pictured) was the first American pilot to be recognized as a flying ace for flying very long range (VLR) missions over mainland Japan during World War II? I can't approve my own proposed hook, but if you like it, you can ask for another review to have a look. Otherwise I can approve alt 2. Whichever you prefer. Cbl62 (talk) 05:20, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
    • @Cbl62: I prefer alt3. I am good to go with it. - Toadboy123 (talk) 11:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Based on my review, I can approve alt2, but the nominator prefers alt3 which I cam up with. Accordingly, we need another reviewer to consider alt3. Cbl62 (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

  • Can someone confirm regarding the status of the hook? I have completed the QPQ for it (Template:Did you know nominations/Bomba Patch). Toadboy123 (talk) 02:15, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
    Toadboy123:
    • hook alt3 is under 200 characters, interesting, and neutral.
      • the cited source states that tapp was "THE FIRST ARMY ACE over Japan" [font size normalized], and that he was "the first Army fighter pilot to earn the [ace] distinction over the Japanese homeland". both descriptions include the qualifier "Army", so i feel that it would be important to include a similar qualifier in the hook. this list suggests to me that there were many flying aces from different branches of the u.s. armed forces during the war, though i admittedly have no idea if any of them became an ace for missions over japan before tapp did.
      • i think acronyms that aren't also used later in a hook are typically not mentioned unless one expects many main page readers to recognize the acronym but not necessarily recognize what the acronym stands for. is "VLR" an acronym that may be recognizable to readers who may not be familiar with the term "very long range"?
      • the source doesn't seem to state that all the credited kills were over mainland japan. instead, the second of the two descriptions above uses the phrase "Japanese homeland", which may include islands like okinawa that are part of the japanese archipelago but are often not considered part of mainland japan. the source doesn't seem to say where exactly tapp flew during his second escort mission, so i can't determine from the source itself whether all the kills occurred over mainland japan. i am not sure how best to address this issue, but i would suggest changing the link "mainland Japan" to either "the Japanese homeland" or "Japan". alternatively, the text might not need to be linked at all.
      • it may be useful to use a non-breaking space (" ") in the link to world war ii, between "War" and "II".
      • i am having trouble confirming that the image is the work of the usaf. google books appears to state that the source the image was scanned from was published by bloomsbury. is there proof that this photograph is the work of the usaf?
      • "P-51" should be linked to "North American P-51 Mustang" to conform with wp:mpnoredirect.
      • would it be helpful to add "aircraft" or "fighter" at the end of the caption? i suppose the context strongly suggests it, but it might be nice to confirm this to readers, especially since the craft is not fully visible in the image.
      • this version of the hook fact does not appear to be included in the article. the differences between the meaning conveyed in the hook and the corresponding sentence in the article are subtle, so i would suggest largely copying verbatim whatever wording ends up being used in the hook to the article.
    dying (talk) 04:49, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
    • @Dying: Is this fine? ...that James B. Tapp (pictured) was the first United States Army Air Forces pilot to be recognized as a flying ace while flying very long range missions over Japan in P-51 Mustang during World War II? - Toadboy123 (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
      Toadboy123:
      • i'm sorry for not previously making this more clear, but my comment about the link "P-51" only referred to the link in the caption. i believe that that link should be changed to "P-51". note that this is a change in the link target, not the link text. i had not meant to suggest that a link to the aircraft be included in the hook text, and am admittedly not sure if it would be a good idea to do so, as it may make a reader believe that tapp was the first usaaf pilot to be designated a flying ace for p-51 missions over japan during world war ii, when the source states that he was the first usaaf pilot to be designated a flying ace for missions over japan during world war ii, regardless of aircraft.
      • i believe "(pictured)" should be in italics.
      • i think "while" should be replaced with "for", as seen in alt3. "while" doesn't necessarily qualify the type of flying ace tapp was acknowledged to be the first of. if someone called me an idiot while i was eating paper, it is not clear if i am being called an idiot for eating paper, or for walking into walls.
      • were you able to confirm that the photograph is the work of the usaf? if you are unable to do so, i'd suggest using the photo of tapp published in the brief source. the source itself mentions that brief is an official publication of the usaaf, so i assume that there shouldn't be any copyright issues with that image.
      dying (talk) 00:30, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
      @Dying: ...that James B. Tapp was the first United States Army Air Forces pilot to be recognized as a flying ace for flying very long range missions over Japan in P-51 during World War II? - Toadboy123 (talk) 09:24, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the image, it seems to be taken by a military personnel based in Iwo Jima. But if there are doubt regarding its issues then it would be better to omit it from the hook. - Toadboy123 (talk) 01:16, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

i'm sorry, Toadboy123, i will try explaining the issue with the "P-51" link in a different way. a redirect is a page that automatically forwards a reader to another page. the page "North American P-51 Mustang" is a normal wikipedia article. in contrast, the page "P-51" is a redirect, because if you visit the page, it automatically sends you to the "North American P-51 Mustang" article. you can tell when you've followed a redirect because the page you land on will say "Redirected from" below the line that says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia".
when you write the code "[[P-51]]", your link will look like this: P-51. this link uses the link text "P-51" and the link target "P-51". this link target is a redirect. if you write the code "[[North American P-51 Mustang]]" instead, your link will look like this: North American P-51 Mustang. this link uses the link text "North American P-51 Mustang" and the link target "North American P-51 Mustang". this link target is not a redirect, but a normal wikipedia article. if you want to include a link that has a link target different than that suggested by the link text, you can do so with code like this: "[[North American P-51 Mustang|P-51]]". this code will produce the following link: P-51. this link uses the link text "P-51" and the link target "North American P-51 Mustang", which is a normal wikipedia article.
wp:mpnoredirect states that it is a good idea to avoid linking to redirects on the main page. my original point was that, in the caption, your link "P-51" ("[[P-51]]"), which targets a redirect, should be replaced with the link "P-51" ("[[North American P-51 Mustang|P-51]]"), which does not use a redirect. wp:mpnoredirect is one of many unusual practices for main page content, and is generally not an issue with links in articles, so i can certainly understand if you are unfamiliar with it.
in any case, if you are withdrawing the image from consideration, my point about the caption is then no longer relevant. however, if you want to mention the aircraft in the hook text itself, i think wp:mpnoredirect should still be adhered to. in addition, since i assume many main page readers will not know what "P-51" refers to, i think it would be better to mention that it is an aircraft in the hook. for example, you could replace "P-51" ("[[P-51]]") with "a P-51 aircraft" ("a [[North American P-51 Mustang|P-51 aircraft]]"). (similarly, if i had stated that someone flew into space in a sokol kv-2, it may not be clear that i am referring to a space suit.)
by the way, there should be a space before "that" in the hook, after the ellipsis ("..."). apologies for missing that the first time. dying (talk) 01:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
@Dying: ALT4 ...that James B. Tapp was the first United States Army Air Forces pilot to be recognized as a flying ace for flying very long range missions over Japan in P-51 aircraft during World War II? - Toadboy123 (talk) 13:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
thanks for resolving the redirect issue, Toadboy123. i think, once you add a space between the ellipsis ("...") and "that", and also copy the wording used in the hook over to the article, we should be good to go. i'd also appreciate if you could add a label to the hook, e.g., "alt4", so that i can more easily explain to promoters which hook is being approved. dying (talk) 02:15, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
@Dying: I made edits as stated. - Toadboy123 (talk) 13:22, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Toadboy123, i believe the facts of the hook should also be stated in the article, which is why i suggested "copy[ing] the wording used in the hook over to the article". right now, the article states that tapp became "the first flying ace while flying VLR missions over Japan", which is inaccurate for the reasons Cbl62 mentioned above, and also different from what the hook states.
i would suggest simply copying the wording used in the hook to the article largely verbatim, by replacing "the first [[flying ace]] while flying VLR missions over Japan" with "the first [[United States Army Air Forces]] pilot to be recognized as a [[flying ace]] for flying VLR missions over Japan in [[North American P-51 Mustang|P-51 aircraft]] during World War II". dying (talk) 01:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
@Dying: ALT4 ....that James B. Tapp was the first United States Army Air Forces pilot to be recognized as a flying ace for flying VLR missions over Japan in P-51 aircraft during World War II? - Toadboy123 (talk) 01:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Toadboy123, i'm sorry for not having made this more clear earlier, but the previous hook was fine. can you restore it? the new hook has an issue because it doesn't explain what "VLR" stands for.
the issue i was trying to explain in my previous comment is with the article itself, not the hook. the article itself currently does not contain the facts stated in the hook.
if you click on this link, search for "the first [[flying ace]] while flying VLR missions over Japan", replace it with "the first [[United States Army Air Forces]] pilot to be recognized as a [[flying ace]] for flying VLR missions over Japan in [[North American P-51 Mustang|P-51 aircraft]] during World War II", and save the edit, then the article itself will contain the facts of the hook. dying (talk) 01:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
@Dying: ALT4 ...that James B. Tapp was the first United States Army Air Forces pilot to be recognized as a flying ace for flying very long range missions over Japan in P-51 aircraft during World War II? - Toadboy123 (talk) 03:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
Toadboy123, you seem to be reluctant to edit the article itself in order to satisfy the dyk criteria. may i ask why? dying (talk) 00:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
@Dying: I was bit confused when you meant with edit to article or the hook itself. Anyway I understood what you meant and I have added the stated facts of the hook to the article. - Toadboy123 (talk) 01:12, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
no worries, Toadboy123, everything worked out in the end. dying (talk) 01:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
alt4 approved, based on Cbl62's review, with the caveat that a space should be inserted between the ellipsis ("...") and "that", as seen in the version of alt4 in this diff. note that the nominated image is not approved, as it has not been confirmed to be either the work of the usaf or the usaaf. dying (talk) 01:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)


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